3rd Party Masterpieces - Just expensive fakes?

[metacooler]

Hey guys,

There are a lot of 3rd party companies making "Masterpiece Transformers" and more coming each month. I have to say that for me, I can not understand why people buy them. Before you blow a gasket, hear me out. I am not saying it is wrong, I just don't get it. I remember when I was six years old and it was Christmas morning. All I wanted was a Transformer, nothing else just a Transformer. I wrote a letter to Santa asking for one, I begged my parents for one. On Christmas morning I ran down to the tree and ripped open all my gifts and finally the last one was the right shape and size. "Oh my god, it's a Transformer jet I know it!" Picture if you can a six year old boy having his dreams crushed. It was not Transformers Starscream it was Jet Robo. Wait what? Needless to say I am still ashamed by the way I acted that day.

Enough with the story telling here is my question... what is the difference between Jet Robo and Apollyon. Isn`t a knock-off just a knock-off and not a real Transformer? I understand people buy them because they want a figure of a character that is not made by Takara. I just do not agree with paying premium prices for a bot that is not made by Takara-Tomy-Hasbro. When I saw knock-offs at Woolco when I was a kid I said that`s fake, don`t want it. Why is it different now? Will they hold their value like authentic MP Transformers?

[Sir Prime A Lot]

Transformers are just knockoffs of Diakron, Diaclone and Microman.

[pandaprime]

I'm sure that Takara-Tomy-Hasbro has to follow more safety regulations for their figure manufacturing than 3P companies. Safety first! :)

[Bountyan]

What premium prices? Third party "MPs" are practically the same price as if Takara did them. Apollyon is only $150. People buy them because they look like the characters and they want the characters. It's not complicated. Which company it is making the figure holds little to no value to me. If I'm using your analogy it's like third parties are giving you a present that's 90-100% what you wanted while HasTak isn't giving you a present at all.

[Whisky Tango Foxtrot]

Jet Robo? You mean Fitor? That was an awesome toy. Sure, it was small and fairly simple, but it looked cool and wasn't a partsforming mess like Starscream was.

[jjwankenobi]

By Jet Robo I think the OP is referring to pre-Transformers, Diaclone era G1 Starscream.

Anyways... Let us clarify something here: Apollyon, Quakewave, Kronos, Iron Dibots etc. They're Third Party toys made to fill in the gaps in the MP character lineup that HasTak hasn't gotten around to making for whatever reason.

The G1 Shockwave, Sunstreaker and Reflector I got off iOffer are KOs. "Fakes". These serve a similar purpose as 3P products: they are made in place of reissue gaps.

Why do I wait with great anticipation for my Apollyon to arrive and why does Quakewave stand guard aside my 5 MP Seekers and Soundwave? Because I want an MP Megatron that's in scale with MP 10 and Shockwave is a core 'Con IMO.

Why do the fake, shoddy quality G1 Shockwave, loose jointed Sunstreaker, and falling apart Reflector share a Detolf shelf with my vintage and reissue G1s? Same reasons the 3P MP Products share space with my official releases.

Yes, they are expensive. But no more expensive than official releases. Are they worth it? That depends on the collector. Is it blasphemy? The answer is irrelevant. For once as a TF fan I can actually get almost exactly what I want. Official or otherwise.

Think of it this way. Rather than hope for HasTak to give you what you want (like your 6 year old self hoped for) you can get it through a 3P company (like the grown up child you are now).

As for holding their value, tentatively I'd say yes. (Quakewave seems to have appreciated in value based on universal acclaim.)

[Sun Swipe Prime]

If something is to be called a fake, then there should be an original. These 3rd party products are all original designs, so they're not fakes. They're definitely IP violators, but they're not fakes.

The difference between G1 Starscream and a KO is a stolen design. It's a knock off, a reproduction of a an existing design.

Take a look at it another way. If someone photocopies a picture of Optimus Prime, it's a reproduction. You might even call it a knock off.

If someone decided to draw their own picture of Optimus Prime, with their own unique pose and composition, would you call that picture a fake?

These 3rd party products, as mentioned above, they fill in a gap in the collector's market, gaps that Hastak might not ever fill. They'll never make an upgrade kit for the energon combiners. They'd never go back and make a Voyage Onslaught to go with the FOC combaticons.

Combiner wars, was this HasTak's response to the realization that people were throwing down throusands of dollars to get some decent G1 combiners?

Was the sudden ramp up of MP figure production a response to 3rd party companies showing them the large and profitable collectors market for this type of product?

On both counts IMHO, I think it was.

[Rev]

OP, how many of these fakes have you handled?

[steamwhistle]

Along the same line of thinking as Bountyan...

Primarily, I want the character which I have seen on-screen and in comics.

For a lot of 3rd party Masterpieces, Takara/Hasbro has not released a version of the character.

For other items, if there is both an official HasTak release and a KO, I will always opt for the official release. I would get the official Ultra Magnus over any 3P offering.

If there are "identical" KOs, as seen with MP Sideswipe, I would almost certainly prefer the official release, but if pricing is just too ridiculous, I would definitely consider the alternative of a less expensive KO, if it was of good quality.

Most of us have probably seen the KO of G1 Devastator (in various colours). I picked one up in ChinaTown years ago for $12. For $12, it was awesome, and I could let my young nephew play with it without caring. Of course, it didn't take long for me to find it broken.

[Megatron75]

Transformers are just knockoffs of Diakron, Diaclone and Microman.

Well...not really knock offs. The early Transformers are technically "rebranded" figures originally designed by Takara under their pre transformers Diakron, Diaclone and Micro Change lines.

[ironclaugh]

I'm a Transformers enthusiast and collector. I'm glad I live in a time with so much selection. We have so many companies designing and competing. They are all trying to make the best version of my favourite toys and I get to sit back and choose which ones I want to buy.

It's not the Beast Wars/Unicron Trilogy days where you get what Hasbro gives you. 3rd party companies are the best thing to happen to Transformers since Devastator.

[Omegatron]

what is the difference between Jet Robo and Apollyon. Isn`t a knock-off just a knock-off and not a real Transformer?

This is a good questions and I don’t really know the answer. I wonder if you would have disliked jet-robo as much if he was the same quality and colour as Starscream and came with decepticon decals. Did you dislike it as a kid because it was harder to pretend it was Starsceam or because it wasn’t made by Hasbro?

I think the question of whether a third party toy can be a masterpiece or not depends on whether you consider masterpiece to be a toy line or design esthetic with a particular price point. If it’s a toy line then only Takara and Hasbro products fit as they are the ones that are officially part of the line. If you think it’s a design aesthetic (detailed cartoon/ toy accurate toys built to “masterpiece scale”) then anything oh high enough quality will fit.

As many have said I prefer Hasbro and Takara products over third party when both are available. That being said some third party stuff is really nice and while I do agree it infringes on Hasbro’s intellectual property I don’t think it hurts Hasbro’s sales so I will buy some occasionally.

Ultimately I think this comes down to expectations. If you want Starsceam and get jet-robo you’ll be disappointed but if you go out of your way to deliberately purchase something you’ll get what you wanted even if it’s a KO or third party toy and you’ll be happy you got it.

[OLDMR]

Kinda feel that 3p have raised the bar over Hastak in some cases which make them legit to me.

[ironclaugh]

Agreeing with Omegatrons last point. I only buy the 3rd party figs I want. Also I have bought rudiculous KOs of G1 combiners and I love them too. Haha

[Soundwaves]

Totally fakes.

Fakes that drive the price for the real thing up.

I don't buy 3p.

They just aren't transformers to me.

Only a Hastak masterpiece transformer can be a masterpiece.

Anything else is just a knock off looking to capitalize on the success of the official line.

I lol when I see "masterpiece style" or something along those lines.

[elburrito]

A K.O. means "knock-off" I.e., a fake, infringes IP. 3rd party is an interpretation of someone else's idea. Totally ok. No IP infringement. Not sure why some of you feel obliged to "protect" some corporation. This is Capitalism! If 3rd parties were infringing IP, you can bet HasTak would do something about it. Remember the "Bronies" and "My Little Wu-tang"?

[Pascal]

I have yet to see an unofficial toy that duplicates perfectly the feel and engineering of a true TT masterpiece toy, but some of them are dangerously close. Close enough to be considered masterpiece toys since some of them are actually better than some of the weakest official masterpiece toys (thinking about Rodimus).

[MULTIPLEX]

They are not making Masterpiece Transformers. Only Hastak can do that. They are making Masterpiece-scale tranforming toys of our favorite Transformers characters. And seems like Hastak doesn't give a hoot (no law suits) cause like someone already pointed out, 3P is driving up the price of their official stuff. That means more profit for them. People are willing to pay premium prices for most of the time, not so premium product.

I was never open to the idea of 3P until I took a chance on Scoria. Let's be honest, I'll be 6 ft under when Takara decides to finally release an MP Slag. Anyways, I only buy some 3P if I feel it fills a gap in my MP collection cause this stuff ain't cheap and most of it doesn't really impress me. But I'm glad 3P exists and I have the option.

In the end, let your money do the talking. But it should go both ways too. This is why I didn't buy YOTG Soundwave or Takara MP-11SW.

[nervousviper]

^^ very well said Multiplex

[Blurrz]

I'm loyal to transforming robots, not a label.

3Ps don't need to deal with restrictions and guidelines that HasTak need to worry about. You pick up something like CW Air Raid and compare it to TFC Phantom, and yeah, you can tell there's a difference between that $15 Deluxe and the $100 you are dishing out for the 3P toy.

People can laugh all they want about 3Ps and say that they're fakes or KO's. But when the designs are coming from fans like you and me, or perhaps even ex-HasTak employees, I really don't mind. They have the ingenuity and the intelligence to craft something that, in my opinion, is generally on par or better than HasTak stuff.

So yeah, I understand when you want to stick to legalities and what not, and its noble! But hey.. does anyone really want to wait 30 years for HasTak to finish their MP Dinobots? There's a massive character roster to fill for MP and HasTak can't do it themselves.

[Hellboy]

3P Companies have the freedom to create what they want without worrying about the retail chain input. There are some excellent 3P "Transformers" out there that I wish I could bring myself to purchase but I'm sticking to the official route for collecting. I know they look like my favourite figures and are often better than the givings from Hasbro and Takara but the names on the boxes are wrong and the official symbols are missing. They just don't count as Transformers to me.

[OLDMR]

MPs are great but for me the title goes to whomever has the best design and while some 3Ps are just ok, I don't think MP could best FP Soar or BC Brawny.

[wedge1021]

With the way Hasbro is going with quality these days, a lot of their mainline toys seem like the fake knock-offs to me. I've pretty much dropped all mainline collecting in favour of Masterpiece - both official and 3P. Hasbro has lost me as an automatic customer - it's quality and overall design that will win my money, regardless of which company produced the item.

[monishb]

Honestly who cares which company makes them. In the end it's all about money to them, and happiness for you.

[mrluthor]

Collect what you like not what you think something will be worth in the future. It's your collection not someone else's collection. Knock offs are not the same as third party figures. The third party companies are recreating the joy of having a character that probably would never see or officially ever get produced. KOs are copies of the Hasbro/Tomy molds they are fakes. Sometimes the KO's are better than the originals. I'm waiting for a KO MP Exhaust hopefully with the original design.

[alternatorfan]

We love these things no matter who makes them!!!!!!

[Mega-Prime 316]

Question...If Takara releases a MP figure, lets say MP Prowl, for example, and sells it at retail for $89.99 and 6 months to a year later Hasbro releases the same figure at a cheaper price, does that make the Hasbro any less of an original, or is it a KO of the original Takara one??

As far as 3P stuff I collect it, and i think there is a strong market for it. Like those before have stated I will more then likely purchase official over the 3P, but in the meantime to fill out the ranks they make great stand ins!! :) And the quality of most of the "big ticket" offerings have equal or better quality then official releases.

[down_shift]

Me personally, I'm not fond of calling any third party figures "Masterpiece". They are highly detailed with lots of options, sizes, characters, price points, ect but they just aren't Masterpieces. Some come pretty close, but in the end they are a separate entity.

Most fans enjoy mixing them in with their official MPs, others like them to fill in the gaps on their Classics shelf. Others just want a figure that has always been their favorite character to stand stoic on their work desk.

I always compare 3P & official product to Lexus & Toyota.

Toyota is a reputable and reliable brand that has a proven track record. They make an affordable product that most can afford, and with that affordable price comes affordable features. That's not to say they are boring, but they could have more to them, right? Well that's where Lexus comes in and blows the Toyota side out of the water. They do everything Toyota does but they do it better but with that comes a higher cost. You pay more for the nicer things, and that kind of the same with 3P.

Another good example are rims. You can put an awesome looking set of After Market rims on your whip that make it look amazing, but that doesn't mean your putting a cheap knock off on your vehicle. You're just exercising a different option.

If Takara makes a Masterpiece Warpath I'll pick it up, but in the mean time I'll be happy taking in a highly detailed homage to that character in Wardog.

[CanBot]

This topic comes up every once in a while. I hope that my opinion doesn't piss anybody off, but it is what it is and I have to stand by my values.

The Transformers were created, as we know them, by Hasbro and Takara. Rather than get too deep into that sentence and argue semantics, it is their intellectual property...all of it. The characters, the toys, the cartoons. They are the ones responsible for our hobby, in my opinion.

3rd party products are not fakes, and I think it was adequately explained elsewhere in this thread why that is.

But they are all infringing on intellectual property of Hasbro and Takara. That, to me, is theft pure and simple. Why Hasbro doesn't put a stop to it by protecting their IP is really beyond me. Cease and desist orders are put out for far more frivolous things, yet somehow 3rd party manufacturers carry on. So I can't blame them for Hasbro not protecting their vested IP rights.

But I don't support what they do or the products they sell. To do so would go against my idea of right and wrong; very much a value issue.

The problem when talking about this is that it divides the fandom into an 'us and them'. That's not cool. I personally don't agree with 3rd party, but why should I judge someone who doesn't? Again, Hasbro is the one who should be doing something to stop their IP from being used illegally.

Those who support 3rd party just want the toys they want that Takara won't (or haven't) released, I get that. I can't think of many fans here that I've seen collections of that don't have more official product than 3rd party...and also replace 3rd party with official product when it's released. And does it really matter to Hasbro that this guy or that gal buy a "not-Menasor" or some other product?...only if that same collector doesn't buy a Hasbro product because the 3rd party product is something they'd rather own.

It's not a cut and dried though, as are many things in life. I don't agree with 3rd party, yet I have to be honest: I picked up a straight up knock-off Ratbat last year on ebay because I didn't think it was fair that I have to buy Soundblaster (a character I do not wish to own) just to get Ratbat (a character I want). So I went with a knock-off. And I can justify it in my mind, but after reading what a few others had to say on the topic, I've decided to go the official route and just sell Soundblaster. Why?...because the quality isn't that great in comparison, and ultimately it's because that purchase went against line of thinking. But again, it's a matter of a few bucks vs a lot of dollars. Yes, it's hypocritical, but we all draw our own lines in the sand.

If 3rd party products really stood up on their own, they wouldn't need to use established Hasbro Transformers property to sell. They could come up with their own robots, their own fiction, their own whatever. But they don't. They outright steal from existing designs and target their marketing to Transformer fans. This is wrong, IMO.

But just because I think it's wrong doesn't really matter much. These days, it seems like if you hold true to an ethic you're just as likely to be scorned than praised. I liken it to downloading music or movies or whatever: that's theft, no matter how you slice it. Do the big companies deserve to have their IP stolen for any reason? Of course not. But people still do it.

Anyways, those are my thoughts and my viewpoint. You won't see me slamming 3rd party products, but I don't bring attention to them either. I basically just ignore them. But I don't ignore the joy they bring to others. I ultimately hope that Hasbro listens to the fans and brings them what they want so that they don't have to go to 3rd party companies, but people are entitled to spend their money how they like.

But these companies should, at the very least, be paying some form of royalty to Hasbro. Some kind of license, if that were possible. Hasbro has shut down a lot smaller ventures that crack at their established IPs, so again...I really don't see why they haven't yet. TFs are a major global brand. Who knows?...maybe in the near future they might make a move against these companies, and those who support them will have valuable and rare 3rd party products.

Just my two cents, in any case.

[CanBot]

One last thing: this idea that interpreting someone else's products is not infringement...that is exactly what infringement is. The Lexus vs Honda thing doesn't hold water: you buy one or the other, Honda corporation still makes money. This doesn't happen with 3rd party TF toys.

If I sell a guitar that has a Fender headstock, I get sued. Same with Gibson. Or if I made a car and put a Chevy logo on it and it looks just like a Camaro.

It's great to buy what you want, but at least recognize it for what it is: you're buying a product from a company that is not paying for the right to sell that product. If you're ok with that, then that's ok. But don't make excuses for it or try to justify it.

[Sun Swipe Prime]

One last thing: this idea that interpreting someone else's products is not infringement...that is exactly what infringement is. The Lexus vs Honda thing doesn't hold water: you buy one or the other, Honda corporation still makes money. This doesn't happen with 3rd party TF toys.


I think there's several things that make it difficult to chase after the 3rd party companies. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but many are located in China, the KO king of the world. Their laws allow for KOing IPs from other countries for local sales.

There's also the catch-me-if-you-can sort of thing. First they have to locate these 3rd party companies, and if they do throw a cease and desist their way, these companies are so small, they can just shut down and pop up under an new name.

Then there's the is-it-worth-the-effort? A lot of 3rd Party stuff doesn't directly compete with HasTak products. Eg, City Commander, Colossus, etc. Those things actually help promote the official products.

And finally, there's the similar but distinct angle. Again, somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but you can't own ideas, just the execution of those ideas.

Roadbuster the character is an IP that someone can own, but a combat vehicle that transforms into a robot isn't. Make that robot and vehicle distinct enough and you get something like FP-Warbot Revolver.

And if you look around this happens in everything from cars to electronics to TV to movies to toilet paper.

[tilallr1]

I guess the question is whether you want a complete line of Masterpiece Transformers. Personally My personal ultimate goal (DREAM Possibly) is to accomplish this. With Takara that is a pipe dream. With 3rd parties, its a reality!!!

[elburrito]

One last thing: this idea that interpreting someone else's products is not infringement...that is exactly what infringement is. The Lexus vs Honda thing doesn't hold water: you buy one or the other, Honda corporation still makes money. This doesn't happen with 3rd party TF toys.

If I sell a guitar that has a Fender headstock, I get sued. Same with Gibson. Or if I made a car and put a Chevy logo on it and it looks just like a Camaro.

It's great to buy what you want, but at least recognize it for what it is: you're buying a product from a company that is not paying for the right to sell that product. If you're ok with that, then that's ok. But don't make excuses for it or try to justify it.

Have to chime in again here. Clearly you have thought about this issue and taken care to set out your thoughts in a coherent and eloquent way. With respect, the law is not about opinion, it is just a set of rules of what is allowed and what is not.

There are three main areas of IP law, copyright, trademark and patent. Patent usually concerns working mechanisms, trademark is established by proof of public recognition of a symbol or mark as being connected with a particular brand. The Nike "swoosh" is an example. Copyright is protection of the "form of expression" of ideas. Examples could include anything from books to paintings to transformers.

Very important is that copyright does not protect the idea, merely the form of expression of the idea (as has been said below).

This is so important because if copyright did protect the idea itself, there would be a stifling effect on most forms of innovation and creativity.

For instance, if copyright protected the idea itself, there could only be one type of car, Ford, because it was Ford's idea and so no one could copy that.

Also, there would be no transformers because of this guy:

http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=16391171&postcount=7

An idea for a transforming robot then no one could make another transforming robot.

It is essential that ideas themselves not be protected by copyright so that "new" things can come along and keep the market competitive.

In this way, 3rd party companies are making a positive contribution by developing the very toys that people question their right to.

So it is fine to be loyal to one company or the other if you want, but to suggest that there is something "morally" wrong with a 3rd party company creating a transforming toy in a form that is different than the creators of the toy is just incorrect.

[protoform_ironhide]

I think this topic has been discussed many times before. I don't think they are knockoffs, just some overpriced toys that want to make big money under the name of transformers. I don't support them personally. I don't mind them either it gives Hasbro the competition to make better toys. I will not spend a dime on them though. The only things I bought from back then were only a few fansproject toys like the city commander and the Bruticus limbs. I am glad that Hasbro finally making their own combiners.

[Rodimus Prime1]

First off, good thread topic to discuss and read, as everyone has their own "Take on it".


I guess the question or arguement is.

What does each person think of as "A FAKE"


For me a "Fake" is an cheaper exact copy of something already made, and trying to pawn it off as an original.


Now if you are refering to the "transformer brand" in general well I guess you could call them fakes, but I personal don't think that way towards them and I also dislike "KO's", except for maybe fueling my customizing habit. I like others have stated, I think they are offering a product not available from HAS or Tak


These third party MP offerings have never been or sold as copies of the original toys. As most of the 3P offerings have not been done anyway and if the have, they are slightly different and never sold as a KO (I won't refer to them as fakes because I do not believe they are). Also most of the 3rd party stuff is a little more expensive most of the time.


Lets use Apoyllon as an example then.

- It is made to resemble megatron,yes, is it "a fake" no I don't think so, as it's not a copy and it's not being sold as MP-5.

- Is it copy of the shows likeness yes and if you refer to this as a "fake" I could not argue with you, other than I personally don't think it's a "fake".

- But let me ask you this. Is it or does it look better than MP-5, my answer is F@#K YES!!!!! and I believe it will be (that much so I already sold my MP-5), and I will proudly display it on my shelf. If Has/Tak ever redue MP-5 i don't know if I would buy it unless Apollyon turns out to be a turd.


I think these 3rd party companies are filling a gap right now and doing a fine job in most cases.

I own both Has/tak and 3rd party TF's.

This is my personal feeling on the matter and I finish by saying everyone is entitled to their own opinions and entitled to buy what they want.

[down_shift]

I disagree. Third Party figures - like rims - are meant to accent the product. You can make a whole collection of it or you can pick and choose what you like.

I personally enjoy this topic. I don't feel offended that someone doesn't like or "get" 3P stuff, just because I do enjoy it. To me that's just silly. Heck, it's why the question was asked.

Hasbro is still making their money and while they don't agree with 3P (well some of them don't, but some others that work with Hasbro now ENDORSE third party figures and option) they have nothing to show that 3P is stopping the sale of their items to their target market - ages 3-12.

[QuadESL63]

I always compare 3P & official product to Lexus & Toyota.

This analogy is wrong: Lexus and Toyota are entities under the same company. Lexus is selling premium "Toyota" vehicles. When you buy a Lexus the money is going to Toyota Motor Corp. like you are buying a Scion or Toyota. And, the intellectual properties of Totoya branded and Lexus branded vehicles belong to Toyota Motor Corp.

In the case of 3P and Hasbro/TT, 3P companies have no relationship whatsoever with Hasbro/TT. When you buy a 3P, the money goes to a 3P company alone, that's it, and they don't even pay for licensing. All 3P companies are walking on a fine line of intellectual properties infringement AFAIK. Calling their products "Not-something" or with different names is not going to work. If someone here is an IP lawyer pls. let us know.

(No, I am not advocating against 3P products. After all I have a few pieces as well because a small percentage of them are well designed and well built for adult collectors. All I want to say is that the analogy is wrong :))

[elburrito]

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-42/page-4.html#docCont,

See s.3(j) note "the" tangible object. Not "any representation of the" tangible object.

I'm am a lawyer, not an IP lawyer (in fact, I barely passed the course) and IP is a huge, complicated area of law wherein laws of different states conflict with each other. The basics, however, are relatively simple.

Transformers would engage all three primary areas of law because there could be patents, definitely contain trademarks and create copyrights in the sense of intangible and tangible expression.

IP rights are limited by time and reach too. It may have changed but a copyright for instance used to last for 25 years and could be renewed a finite number of times. Eventually it expires and the "work" enters the public domain.

Also, copyright isn't a comprehensive or absolute right.

We've all seen rows of photocopy machines at the library. They are there so people can copy other peoples' works. Nothing illegal about it.

At the end of the day, the penalty for infringement was payment of royalties to the copyright holder I.e., a civil not-criminal remedy (there is a movement to create an offence out of violation, but that's as much a reflection of the current GOC as the moral-turpitude of copyright infringement).

Ironically, (and theoretically) the public should decide what is and what is not illegal (so opinions should be relevant) but currently it seems to be "money" making laws to protect "money" and the result of that is inevitably greater restriction of individual liberty. That is bad!

So when people say they are loyal to 1 corporation or another I.e., "money" it is disturbing, but they are entitled. When people claim a moral-obligation to such loyalty, it is unfortunate and incorrect.

[joshimus]

I used to consider 3P as something I would not buy but in all honesty, some of them have fantastic quality and better designs than HasTak. A bootleg versus 3P are certainly not the same thing either. 3P Megatron at MP Takara pricepoint is certainly not bad either

[MULTIPLEX]

Have to chime in again here. Clearly you have thought about this issue and taken care to set out your thoughts in a coherent and eloquent way. With respect, the law is not about opinion, it is just a set of rules of what is allowed and what is not.

There are three main areas of IP law, copyright, trademark and patent. Patent usually concerns working mechanisms, trademark is established by proof of public recognition of a symbol or mark as being connected with a particular brand. The Nike "swoosh" is an example. Copyright is protection of the "form of expression" of ideas. Examples could include anything from books to paintings to transformers.

Very important is that copyright does not protect the idea, merely the form of expression of the idea (as has been said below).

This is so important because if copyright did protect the idea itself, there would be a stifling effect on most forms of innovation and creativity.

For instance, if copyright protected the idea itself, there could only be one type of car, Ford, because it was Ford's idea and so no one could copy that.

Also, there would be no transformers because of this guy:

http://forums.superherohype.com/showpost.php?p=16391171&postcount=7

An idea for a transforming robot then no one could make another transforming robot.

It is essential that ideas themselves not be protected by copyright so that "new" things can come along and keep the market competitive.

In this way, 3rd party companies are making a positive contribution by developing the very toys that people question their right to.

So it is fine to be loyal to one company or the other if you want, but to suggest that there is something "morally" wrong with a 3rd party company creating a transforming toy in a form that is different than the creators of the toy is just incorrect.

This was a good summary and perspective. First thing that came to mind when reading this was LEGO. Didn't they corner the market for years until their patent ran out recently. Then other companies like Kreo and Megablocks, etc came into the picture to offer more options.

But clearly, 3P are recreating the same characters invented or drawn by Hasbro. Isn't that against the law? Just curious. That's a big loop hole in the laws if it isn't.

[miyinan]

This is really something personal. If you don't like 3rd party toys, just don't buy them. No need to ask other people why they bought them or try to convince them not buying. I personally do not buy 3rd party toys and I think it's perfectly fine either way. More 3rd party companies is definitely good cuz it gets Hasbro and Takara work hard:)

p.s. love your story...jet robo...lol

[CanBot]

Very important is that copyright does not protect the idea, merely the form of expression of the idea (as has been said below).

This is so important because if copyright did protect the idea itself, there would be a stifling effect on most forms of innovation and creativity.

For instance, if copyright protected the idea itself, there could only be one type of car, Ford, because it was Ford's idea and so no one could copy that.



An idea for a transforming robot then no one could make another transforming robot.

It is essential that ideas themselves not be protected by copyright so that "new" things can come along and keep the market competitive.

In this way, 3rd party companies are making a positive contribution by developing the very toys that people question their right to.

So it is fine to be loyal to one company or the other if you want, but to suggest that there is something "morally" wrong with a 3rd party company creating a transforming toy in a form that is different than the creators of the toy is just incorrect.

Thanks for this great reply. I bolded some points and removed others for brevity.

I have to agree, I didn't mean to make it sound like it's a morally wrong to support 3rd party. I can only speak for myself, and like I mentioned, I truly don't judge others for whatever they decide to do.

One thing I notice, however, is that your stance allows 3rd party to do what they do because they're creating 'transforming toys'. This is key, because what I'm trying to convey is that some of these companies are not only making transforming toys (something I'm 100% okay with), they are representing the likeness of another company's products as their own and profiting from it.

A product like Apollyon is not simply a transforming toy: it's a toy that looks almost identical to the character of Megatron, a character that for all intents and purposes belongs to Hasbro. I am not a lawyer, so I really do not know (but would like to) if that constitutes something illegal.

It's as if I decided to publish some books with cartoon characters of, say, Disney corporation, yet name them something different: Mickey Moose and Ronald Duck :D How can another company profit over that copyrighted material? Those characters are the lifeblood of Disney and without them, there is no Disney. Which is why I assume I don't see Ronald Duck toys at Toys R Us (and the reason you don't see Apollyon there either).

Perhaps I was wrong to call it intellectual property; maybe it's copyrighted materials. And from what I understand, certain things go into public domain after 25 years (I think). Which is why Paramount Pictures lost when it tried to sue Nintendo back when Donkey Kong was released as an arcade game (saying that it infringed their copyrighted character of a gorilla kidnapping a woman). The reason they lost to Nintendo, though, wasn't because of copyright but because the character of King Kong was already public domain...and that's the only reason that Paramount wasn't successfully sued by the original copyright holders (Toho) of the black and white movie King Kong when Paramount made the 1976 made for tv movie :D

I guess my bottom line is that if a 3rd party company can take copyrighted characters and profit off them, I think that's wrong. I don't know if it's illegal, but if it's not, then there is literally no reason for anybody to come up with anything new: it's just as stifling for creativity to have endless copies of what's out there and popular now than to create something completely different and new, wouldn't you say?

Does anybody think that if the incredibly awesome Feral Rex wasn't based on Predaking that is still would have sold well? I would argue it absolutely would not. How many non-Transformer based characters are being produced by these companies? I would harbor to guess not a single one. And that's because much like comic book characters, there's not anything that the fans of transforming toys would find that interesting about characters that nobody knows. If Quakewave looked nothing like Shockwave, yet was just as intricate and cool looking, would it have sold well? I don't think so.

There is some innovation going on within 3rd party companies, no doubt. So why don't they create new characters? I would still have a problem if they used the faction symbols, as Decepticons and Autobots are also another copyrighted article owned by Hasbro. If these companies want to use them, they should pay something. That would, of course, never happen.

Just look at how Marlboro quickly shut down Takara from selling Exhaust in the US market. And the logo was honestly not even that recognizable, IMO! Hasbro obviously has no problem with the existance of 3rd party companies, and plenty of posts here explain why. I still think it's wrong, but that's just me.

Sorry for the long posts, I can't help it :D Thanks for reading, though.

[Sun Swipe Prime]

How many non-Transformer based characters are being produced by these companies? I would harbor to guess not a single one.

I agree most are based off HasTak's IP, but there are a few figures that I know are for the most part not based on any existing characters that did sell fairly well, all by Fansproject.

First is Steelcore, and second, there's the Glacialord combiner and its component parts.

[canprime]

Of course it is illegal to profit off of another company's/persons'sIP without their permission. (Or paying them).

3Ps are doing just that. However most of them are based in China where the laws and the enforcement of IP are pretty lax, especially for foreign companies.

Hasbro could go after them to shut them down, but the process would take a lot longer than in North America. Also there is no guarantee they would get a satisfactory result, and even less of a chance they would get any sort of compensation/financial damages.

Maybe one day they will make the effort, but that day isn't today.

Cost/benefit. It's a bitch sometimes.

Oh, and I have a bunch of 3P product, so don't take my post as some kind of ethical stance. Just posting the most likely scenario.

[steamwhistle]

It's as if I decided to publish some books with cartoon characters of, say, Disney corporation, yet name them something different: Mickey Moose and Ronald Duck :D

You might get sued.
I think Mickey Moose and Ronald Duck are characters belonging to The Muppets franchise. :p

[CanBot]

As far as the lax laws in China....everything else is made in China, so how would it be any more difficult to ensure the products aren't allowed into NA? And are these companies like Fansproject off-shore enterprises? I thought these were American companies, I don't know.

We've all got our opinions on the topic, so thanks for sharing.

Lol about the Muppets...I knew I heard those two names before from somewhere :D But again, if the Muppets could sue for others using their characters, how would using Megatron's near-exact likeness be any different? It's kinda like the elephant in the room.

Speaking of my guitar example, plenty of Chinese companies make knock-off products that are exactly (in terms of looks only...the quality is truly bad) like their big-name counterparts. And often times, they're made in the exact factories the originals are made, just a lot more cheaply. When you're dealing with that kind of corruption, it's hard to say what to do about it. In the end, there's nothing that we as consumers can do. So the big circle continues, with those who support 3rd party for whatever reasons and those that don't. I don't see my enjoyment impacted at all with the availability of these 3rd party products, perhaps Hasbro is the same way.

Yet Hasbro will go after smaller companies with cease and desist orders for far, FAR smaller potatoes...board game IPs, for example. There was a kickstarter for a game that hasn't been in production for 20 years, and Hasbro still shut them down. Well, not completely...the company making the game that took the name and components from the original had the copyright, but only for a release in Spain. They didn't do their homework and then lost out on the American distribution. And believe me, the KS wasn't that lucrative. Yet Hasbro reared its might and came down on these developers with a C&D order.

Anyways, food for thought.

[Masta_Skidz]

No where on the box does it say Transformers, Hasbro, Takara or the name that the companies tt and h have given them for 3rd party. So it would be hard for them to go after them just because the finished product looks like something h or tt has made is irrelavent as they are not using the company name , character name or logo . Also they make sure the name of the 3rd party company is on the box in pretty big letter so i would think that 3rd party is just enough in the grey area that h and tt have no grounds on suing them in that sense as nothing was stolen.

[elburrito]

I guess I can see how it seems unfair if Frank takes Bob's idea and generates a profit from it without any compensation for Bob. It is "legal" though. But, if Frank takes Bob's work and profits, Bob has a remedy.

So for e.g., The name and fiction related to "Shockwave" is the idea whereas the G1 toy is an example of the "Work". Anyone KO's a G1 toy, the IP owners of "Shockwave" can come after them for the profits. "Quake wave" is another work based on the same idea, but it is indisputably not-shockwave so it's legal.

One place 3p companies could run into trouble is their reproduction of the fiction. People who bought "Huff" for instance will see in the bio a description that includes "Huff" pulling the leaders truck when the leader was injured. This is clearly a reference to episode 2 of the original MTMTE cartoon. Is it enough to infringe? I don't know. In fact, I don't even know who owns the cartoons. It has been more than 25 years.

For interests stake, as already pointed out, the "sleeping dragon" ... maybe "stirring dragon" does not stop at transformers. I read an article recently about China knocking off the Sphinx and the Eiffel tower.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/photos/sphinx-eiffel-tower-among-china-s-monumental-reproductions-1.3015100

One final point. I have on fairly good authority that Phillip Morris' objection to MP 23 Exhaust's deco had little if anything to do with IP infringement. It makes sense because no one is going to mistake MP23 for a pack of cigarettes and "accidentally" purchase MP23 when they really wanted a Marlboro. If anything, it might make people want a pack of Marlboros which is good for Phillip Morris right? The issue was that MP23 Exhaust is meant (to some degree) for children and Phillip Morris was concerned about the propriety/legality of marketing cigarettes to children. It turned out that, upon reflection, Takara agreed with them.

[Sun Swipe Prime]

And are these companies like Fansproject off-shore enterprises? I thought these were American companies, I don't know.


If you look at all the "Engrish" on the 3rd party packaging, instructions, and comics, it's pretty obvious they come from a non-English speaking country.

[joshimus]

Green Giant was my first 3P figure and I LOVE IT! Now that Titan Devestator is coming out, I fully plan on buying it but Maketoys still looks like a better product.
Same goes with Quakewave, Hexitron, Ferel Rex and now Apollyon. (what I own, plan to own)
It's not that I am buying them in spite of HasTak, it's that I love those characters and HasTak has nadda happening. I mean, I have MP Megatron and Apollyon looks far better. Not only that but I believe MP Megatron was still 15% tax at the time and Apollyon's USD tag is still reasonable and comparable for a figure that looks to outshine Takara's.
3P is seeking the fanbase and while HasTak has Generations and Takara has MP's, it's not the same level 3P is pulling out.
I mean, look at TRU's Platinum Edition toys out now? That's not "catering to the fanbase", that's more extortion than anything else. All the Platinum figs have been released within the past 10 years. MP SW with all 5 cassettes was on sale 99.00 what like a year ago at most? Now 200?
There is no reason for these prices. Now, that could be on the TRU level and have nothing to do with Hasbro, but if so, you'd think Hasbro would step in and say something.
So for me, this is kind of where I stand. The toys have been getting crappier since DOTM, imo anyway. TFP had some decent figs, AOE has only a handful of decent figs. Now we have 3 different styles of 1 step changers as well as some non-transforming all mixed with the 1 line of harder Generations figs. My interest from HasTak has decreased a lot and I am turning to 3P to get figures that seem better.

From a legal standpoint, I don't disagree that it makes no sense why HasTak can't/won't go after 3P companies for the obvious copywrite infringement or license infringement or whatnot, but 3P's are doing for the fans what HasTak are not. They are also flooding the market with "same shit different company" as well which I tend to avoid those. (3 different Predakings, 2 different Devestators, the Dinobot thing happeninig now) Thing is, if HasTak isn't doing it, someone else will, legally or not. It doesn't make it right, from a legal standpoint, but as a fan of those characters, I just don't give a shit at this point. How many times have we lost out on waves of figures because Hasbro and TRU/Walmarts have moved onto different lines?

Fans are being pushed towards online more and more these days and 3P companies are there to pick up the slack. So...on characters I really like, I bite.
We never got a Leader DOTM Megatron and 3A has the license for it and now I am getting one. Granted the TF's are non-transforming and nearly 20" tall, but hey, take what I can get.
If a 3P company had done it, a leader class transformable Megatron from DOTM, I would have bought it. Simple as that. Fan made toys for fans. The legality issues is something HasTak and 3P need to work out. For myself, whatever their reasons, be it budget, costs of materials, parents complaining they can't transform a figure. With all the choices kids have now, having a leader class figure and being more difficult isn't crazy talk. ROTF Prime is a FANTASTIC figure. Ironhide, Starscream, even Sentinel. Leader scale figures that worked really really well. Just change the age group to something higher. The new Deluxe Prime for the new RID, found it a few days ago and BASIC transformer with kibble that should not be kibble. (working on modifying him) Drift is just as simple. Great for kids who don't want to learn complex thinking skills I guess.
Either way, I am ranting cause it's midnight and I have to work in the morning.
If you like the 3P figure, either buy it or don't. I don't disagree that the legal issues seem fuzzy but hey, I don't buy 3P often so...suck it HasTak.

[Megatron75]

Green Giant was my first 3P figure and I LOVE IT! Now that Titan Devestator is coming out, I fully plan on buying it but Maketoys still looks like a better product...

...I mean, look at TRU's Platinum Edition toys out now? That's not "catering to the fanbase", that's more extortion than anything else. All the Platinum figs have been released within the past 10 years. MP SW with all 5 cassettes was on sale 99.00 what like a year ago at most? Now 200?

You make a number of excellent points. I dabbled in the 3rd party market in the early days but have long since sold them off. As a collector, I just have no interest in them any longer although I do respect the designs and the engineering that goes into them. I will say that I had great difficulty selling the ones I had, even MISB. Other companies were making similar characters so they seemed to devalue the older ones on the secondary market. I don't collect Transformers because I think it's a good investment (it's generally not under most circumstances) but it does sting when you sell MISB for less than you paid. KOs of some of the popular 3rd party figures at the time didn't help either in that respect.

I've never handled the Maketoys Green Giant but it looks like an excellent set. Better set than Titan Devastator? Sure, but in fairness, Titan Devastator is a $200 set whereas Maketoys Green Giant is a $400 set....even more if you bought them individually on the first production run. Same character but at double the price point, so it should be better.

I honestly think that Hasbro has seen what collectors are willing to pay for Masterpiece scaled 3rd party figures and are simply following suite. Your example of Hasbro MP Soundwave vs. the recent Year of the Goat version is a prime example of this. Hasbro's version of MP-10 (Optimus Prime) was also $100 at TRU, then $120. The YOTH version started out at $150, only to eventually (recently) be put on clearance at $99. I'm almost speechless at the $109 price point of the Platinum Edition Insecticons, even though I'm a huge G1 fan and love the new box art. People are willing to pay it so sadly the prices won't get any cheaper unless you buy them on sale or clearance. The Transformers landscape is definitely changing.

[Pascal]

If a 3P company had done it, a leader class transformable Megatron from DOTM, I would have bought it.

Well, there's the upscaled version of the Voyager that's nearly 50cm tall...

[joshimus]

I've never handled the Maketoys Green Giant but it looks like an excellent set. Better set than Titan Devastator? Sure, but in fairness, Titan Devastator is a $200 set whereas Maketoys Green Giant is a $400 set....even more if you bought them individually on the first production run. Same character but at double the price point, so it should be better.

I honestly think that Hasbro has seen what collectors are willing to pay for Masterpiece scaled 3rd party figures and are simply following suite. Your example of Hasbro MP Soundwave vs. the recent Year of the Goat version is a prime example of this. Hasbro's version of MP-10 (Optimus Prime) was also $100 at TRU, then $120. The YOTH version started out at $150, only to eventually (recently) be put on clearance at $99. I'm almost speechless at the $109 price point of the Platinum Edition Insecticons, even though I'm a huge G1 fan and love the new box art. People are willing to pay it so sadly the prices won't get any cheaper unless you buy them on sale or clearance. The Transformers landscape is definitely changing.
I bought as the set, but if you think about it, the engineering of the figures versus Titan Dev, it sorta evens out.
If GreenGiant sold for, lets say 400. Somewhere around there, I don't remember.
So, 400/6= is about 67.00 a fig
Titan Dev at 200 is half price per fig but half the engineering. It looks like an upscaled G1. Scrapper has no elbows and you can't tell me they couldn't add a strong joint to push inside so his arms are stiff for the foot. You can't tell me it can't be done, even on a basic level. Even a strong peg to plug into.
So, for 3P, we pay more for more detail, more parts, better transformations and articulation, but Titan Dev looks like a basic figure, much like Metroplex. I love Metroplex, but considering the size, is there really a reason why he's engineered so basic? Other than material costs I mean.
If Titan Devestator was engineered better and made them look less G1 upscaled and more G1 2015 and at a higher price point, I'd still bite. I'm willing to pay more for a better quality figure, but not more for a basic figure or in Platinum case, an old figure repainted pretending to be better.

Also, Hasbro taking advantage of fans by pricing the Platinum line doesn't make it right either. Just because I am willing to pay more for a 3P figure that has twice the detail and articulation doesn't mean I want to pay twice as much for a figure that isn't even painted now (soundwave) This kind of thing pushes me more towards 3P, and I don't buy 3P often. HasTak has no one to blame but themselves.

So, I fully support those that chose not to support 3P, be it moral, legal or just not interested. It took me years and the need for Green Giant to break that. At the same time, who can blame us for buying into the 3P lines?

p.s. still waiting for a 3P or Hasbro new Trypticon.
Someone make it happen.

[joshimus]

Well, there's the upscaled version of the Voyager that's nearly 50cm tall...
Yeah I know, a KO, seen that posting someplace. In all honesty, it's too big. I mean the 3A will be too big, but a KO that feels out of place. I dunno. I could always modify it too.

[brr-icy]

They are not making Masterpiece Transformers. Only Hastak can do that. They are making Masterpiece-scale tranforming toys of our favorite Transformers characters. And seems like Hastak doesn't give a hoot (no law suits) cause like someone already pointed out, 3P is driving up the price of their official stuff. That means more profit for them. People are willing to pay premium prices for most of the time, not so premium product.

I was never open to the idea of 3P until I took a chance on Scoria. Let's be honest, I'll be 6 ft under when Takara decides to finally release an MP Slag. Anyways, I only buy some 3P if I feel it fills a gap in my MP collection cause this stuff ain't cheap and most of it doesn't really impress me. But I'm glad 3P exists and I have the option.

In the end, let your money do the talking. But it should go both ways too. This is why I didn't buy YOTG Soundwave or Takara MP-11SW.

Pretty much this, 3p while some of them are great figures, they aren't Transformers. Only official product is a Transformer, a good homage to it? sure.

I collect what I like, and sometimes there are some 3p in there that I really enjoy, but if an official MP of said character was to come out, the 3p one would be out the door. The Diaclone example doesn't really apply since they were made by the same company.

[CanBot]

I'm learning a lot from this discussion and rethinking some thoughts and attitudes I had, so I thank you guys.

The simple answer to the OP is 'no', they're not fakes. If they were exact replicas like the KO product, then the answer is 'yes'. The discussion that follows is part of the complex 'grey area', which I now know is a lot more complicated than I first thought.

When I think of the reasons why I don't support 3rd party, the main one must be use of the characters from Hasbro. Like Bricy said, 3rd party products are not "Transformers", and that's an important distinction. They're transforming toys, and some of them are pretty good. Many fill the needs that we collectors want, but that's besides the point.

Since they're not 'stealing' in the usual sense from Hasbro, then I don't know what to call when you steal the ideas for characters, then sell products based on those products without paying the original copyright holders. The Disney analogy holds true, I believe: try to sell a stuff mouse that looks remarkably similar to Mickey Mouse, call it Clarence the Rat and I guarantee you that Disney will put a quick stop to it.

If the fictional company that marketed Clarence the Rat made the product look absolutely nothing like Mickey Mouse, that product simply would not exist because there would be no reason for anybody to buy it...other than if they thought it looked cute, or something. Building these characters, memorable ones at least, takes a lot of time and money. Disney, from what I understand, applies for extensions to their original copyrights and bids literally enormous amounts of money to keep their characters, and thus, controls them to this day. Mickey Mouse of all characters would be considered public domain by this point, don't you think? And while Hasbro is no Disney, it's the 'Disney' in the toy world. (*side note: thinking of obscure characters of Disney, there's this one teddy bear that they sell but it's only really found at stores in Disneyland...I forget his name, of course, but he's this little sailor bear. And you look at him and you're like, who is this bear, I've never seen a movie or anything based on him?...yet there he is and the little kids love him. Wish I could remember his name, lol)

When I said American companies, I thought that the products were designed by Americans but the production was in Asia (like everything else) but I guess I was wrong on that one.

I cannot accept that Apollyon, for example, is not considered theft because it's not based on any Hasbro product. You're right, there's no toy that Hasbro makes that is exactly like Apolyon. And nowhere on the package does it say Takara, Hasbro, Transformers or Megatron. But to me, that's a red herring. Some of these 3rd party bots are called "not-insertnamehere". Any presiding judge would look at the product and draw the similarity between Megatron and Apollyon, I have no doubt. So where did the idea from Apollyon come from? Hasbro. Without that character, you have nothing. I guess I am not up to speed on legalities of what theft is considered, but I generally look at it like this: if I designed a popular toy and had another 3rd party make an almost exact likeness toy based on my toy, I would sue and I would think I would win. I would probably be wrong :D but that's how I look at it.

I cannot think of any other area where this would not hold true. If it wasn't, don't you think that Disney's products would have the same problem? I guess they're more worried about outright fakes, I suppose...and that's a real problem for Disney.

These 3rd party products are on the radar, I'm sure, but at the end of the day I guess it's not important enough for Hasbro to go after. I still find that hard to believe considering the much smaller things that Hasbro has gone after where the stakes were much smaller.

I don't think freedoms and innovation are stifled, either, by restricting 3rd party products. They can innovate and make whatever toy they want; I just don't think it's right that they can use established characters to sell them...without paying some kind of royalty.

All this is really interesting to me, so thanks for the posts guys. I 'think' I'm at a point where I've thought enough about it, and came to my own conclusion. I'd still be very interested to hear further, though, so by all means add away. Who knows, my attitude has already changed quite a bit from what I thought at the beginning of this discussion :D

[Sun Swipe Prime]

^^ Well reasoned out CanBot. Nothing I can really disagree with.

To peek into the rabbit hole a little deeper, what do people think of KOs of 3rd Party products? Full disclosure, I own stuff like KO Hercules.

[MULTIPLEX]

^^ Well reasoned out CanBot. Nothing I can really disagree with.

To peek into the rabbit hole a little deeper, what do people think of KOs of 3rd Party products? Full disclosure, I own stuff like KO Hercules.

Or the oversized KOs of 3P or Hastak stuff.

@Canbot

I don't think there is any example of a 3P toy calling their design not-[insert official Hastak name here]. Somebody correct me if I am wrong. I think that's just what the thread titles are called on forums when the news hits to help easily identify what character it homages. But never on the box.

The only one example I can see being a problem are some of the WST Justitoys offerings. They were straight up copies of Hastak design but on a smaller scale. But even those figure characters had different names given to them. Good example are the WST Dinorobots. And IIRC, Hasbro put a C&D order on TFSource (US company) for selling them.

[pside9]

Many of the figures made by the 3P companies are fantastic works of toy engineering. That is a huge draw for me, but I'll be honest that another crucial draw for me is the character its an homage too.

3P companies are using the characters and likenesses created by Hasbro and Takara without paying them any kind of royalty or licensing fee. Thats what keeps me from buying a 3P offering .... when there actually is an offering from Has/Tak.

But I totally understand people buying 3P items of characters that are very unlikely to be made by Has/Tak. I'm still on the fence about which 3P dinobots I should go for. And while I'm not for straight out KOs, I wouldn't think its harmful to buy ones that are no longer being sold by Has/Tak.
eg. oversize KO ROTF Megatron.

[elburrito]

This is an interesting topic for debate.

Mickey Mouse gets into trademark. Especially the top of the head and the ears. The idea being that this:

http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://cliparts.co/cliparts/rTL/xkj/rTLxkjaBc.jpg&imgrefurl=http://cliparts.co/mickey-mouse-silhouette-clip-art&h=616&w=690&tbnid=7HNvEifkNT2QuM:&zoom=1&docid=bybZV0CT3JErcM&ei=3kgxVauoMo6rogTVlICwBA&tbm=isch&ved=0CDEQMygAMAA

is universally associated with Mickey Mouse and if someone else makes a mouse that looks like that, unsuspecting consumers could be fooled into thinking it's "Mickey Mouse" i.e., they could buy a "fake". Note that this ostensibly is to protect the consumer over the TM owner.

There are other cartoon mice though. Just not ones that look exactly like Mickey Mouse. Though at this point, the others may all be owned by Disney as well.

It may seem unfair that A can profit from B's idea without compensation to B, but (as a matter of policy), no one can own an idea, only a work.

[joshimus]

On a side note, I wouldn't call Appollyon a "Masterpiece" in terms of Takara MP's in name but a masterpiece in terms of appearance. If that doesn't sound confusing. Essentially it's just Megatron to me, a really nice rendition, but I don't consider the title "MP" like I do my actual MP Megatron.

[Nullray]

Strange that people want to call third party things as non MP but the word MP is just an association with what level of sophistication and detail a product attributes to their release. I think it is a simple as this. If the collectible line is so popular that a group of individuals are willing to create a complex hand puzzling robot as we all know it. I say hats off to them because their is a lot of bandwagon jumpers. So I say let the internet reviews weed out the QC weak. I collect what I find appealing and nothing short of that. How many Pre Rub G1s do you own. I have a few and after the KOs released their wave I have thermal rub signs to prove mine are real.

They are not KOs but unique items that fill the collection gap based on fandom ambitions. They fill a void and are not limited to regulations that are imposed for safety regulations for children. 3P are directly marketed at adult collectors and nobody else. If you don't like what you see then just don't go there or pick some choice pieces to add to your diverse collection.

[joshimus]

Strange that people want to call third party things as non MP but the word MP is just an association with what level of sophistication and detail a product attributes to their release. I think it is a simple as this.
I view "MP" as part of the line, like "classics" or "generations" etc. Just because a 3P makes a "classics" style Ironhide, that doesn't make it "classics" in terms of the line. Inspired is more accurate. Appollyon is an inspired MP Megatron and while be a masterpiece in it's own right, not a "masterpiece" by association with Takara MP's. 3P isn't part of the MP line regardless of MP appearance and innovation. Hence non-MP Appollyon.

[timcrook]

I can't wait to get my unofficial MP-scale not-megatron.

[elburrito]

I can't wait to get my unofficial MP-scale not-megatron.

https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=6GbQMqFivo8

[Gatchatron]

Good thread - very interesting topic; enjoying reading the different takes on this.

I'll chime in with my very wishy-washy opinion/experiences with 3P:

I tend to agree they're not "fakes" or "knockoffs" for similar reasons as outlined by others...

...but they are definitely infringing on HasTak IP - as they are very clearly representing/cashing in on their established characters.

That said:

I refused, for a long time, to get any 3P stuff at all. It was easy, for awhile, as I wasn't really interested in any of it.

Then Quakewave came along.

The reviews were off the charts - everyone was saying this was a damn near perfect 'Masterpiece Shockwave'. "No," I said to myself, "I'm not adding any non-official stuff to the collection, no matter how cool it may be!"

...and so I passed on Quakewave.

Eventually, though, my long time desire to have a really good rendition of Devastator led me to look at TFC Hercules. I really liked the look of it, and had convinced myself that Hasbro would neeeeevvvvver do one that had the size and overall look that I thought would do ol' Devy justice.

I continued to balk, further convincing myself the cost was just too ridiculous for such a thing, no matter how great I thought it was: Until I came into some unexpected money. With that, I caved, said "what the hell", and picked up my first 3P offering (or first six, depending on how you look at it).

Thought is was a well done, er, "homage" if not a little "plain" - but I was able to improve said plainness with some custom decals (but that's a story for another time)

Anyway - I was ok with the pick up - but was sure Herc would be my one "non official" product.

Then Soar became available.

Damn.

I guess what I'm saying is: I kinda feel like 3P is a "slightly darker shade of gray" area... but dammit, when they are done so well: it's hard not to put that slight ethics concern aside and just go for it.

Yes, I wish I had caved on Quakewave.

Yes, after Soar, I went back and got Scoria, But that's ALL the 3P offerings I have!


...for now. :|

(PS: First post!)

[B13]

Good insight on your collector's habits. Thanks Gatchatron!

I never was a big fan of 3rd party figures. I own a UT Sharkticon and soon Apollyon. Oh, and an IT Tetrajet. I like to look at new offerings, but generally don't want to finance this kind of business. I purchase them as less as possible. It is undeniable though that they sometimes show great ideas and design! Only my opinion.



Good thread - very interesting topic; enjoying reading the different takes on this.

I'll chime in with my very wishy-washy opinion/experiences with 3P:

I tend to agree they're not "fakes" or "knockoffs" for similar reasons as outlined by others...

...but they are definitely infringing on HasTak IP - as they are very clearly representing/cashing in on their established characters.

That said:

I refused, for a long time, to get any 3P stuff at all. It was easy, for awhile, as I wasn't really interested in any of it.

Then Quakewave came along.

The reviews were off the charts - everyone was saying this was a damn near perfect 'Masterpiece Shockwave'. "No," I said to myself, "I'm not adding any non-official stuff to the collection, no matter how cool it may be!"

...and so I passed on Quakewave.

Eventually, though, my long time desire to have a really good rendition of Devastator led me to look at TFC Hercules. I really liked the look of it, and had convinced myself that Hasbro would neeeeevvvvver do one that had the size and overall look that I thought would do ol' Devy justice.

I continued to balk, further convincing myself the cost was just too ridiculous for such a thing, no matter how great I thought it was: Until I came into some unexpected money. With that, I caved, said "what the hell", and picked up my first 3P offering (or first six, depending on how you look at it).

Thought is was a well done, er, "homage" if not a little "plain" - but I was able to improve said plainness with some custom decals (but that's a story for another time)

Anyway - I was ok with the pick up - but was sure Herc would be my one "non official" product.

Then Soar became available.

Damn.

I guess what I'm saying is: I kinda feel like 3P is a "slightly darker shade of gray" area... but dammit, when they are done so well: it's hard not to put that slight ethics concern aside and just go for it.

Yes, I wish I had caved on Quakewave.

Yes, after Soar, I went back and got Scoria, But that's ALL the 3P offerings I have!


...for now. :|

(PS: First post!)

[MULTIPLEX]

This has naturally evolved into a discussion on what is a "Masterpiece".

To me, Masterpiece is the trademarked toy line by Hastak and serves as the reference robot mode scale (post MP-9/10). There is a certain level of quality associated with it.

But in the 3P world, masterpiece refers to scale only. Quality varies quite a bit.

That's my take on it, anyways.

[joshimus]

This has naturally evolved into a discussion on what is a "Masterpiece".

To me, Masterpiece is the trademarked toy line by Hastak and serves as the reference robot mode scale (post MP-9/10). There is a certain level of quality associated with it.

But in the 3P world, masterpiece refers to scale only. Quality varies quite a bit.

That's my take on it, anyways.
I can agree with that too. More of a reference to scale than the trademark name. This way you know the 3P MP figure will be in scale with HasTak Mp's.

[Grimtron]

Third parties are not knock offs, since they are not copying a toy. 3rd parties use there own ideas to create these figures. That said, they are stealing hasbro/Takada intellectual property though, but it seems has/tak doesn't care since 3rd parties to not sell a lot and they are not taking customers away. People would probably buy a revision of my Megatron even if they had xtrans not Megatron.

All that said 3rd parties do make original transformers. like I really like make toys tanker series cause it reminds me of RID scourge or G2 Optimus, which is my favorite mold of a transformers. Like I don't see has/tak reusing these molds ever except when they charge a fortune for an mp version lol.

[xbrawn]

Third parties are not knock offs, since they are not copying a toy. 3rd parties use there own ideas to create these figures. That said, they are stealing hasbro/Takada intellectual property though, but it seems has/tak doesn't care since 3rd parties to not sell a lot and they are not taking customers away. People would probably buy a revision of my Megatron even if they had xtrans not Megatron.

All that said 3rd parties do make original transformers. like I really like make toys tanker series cause it reminds me of RID scourge or G2 Optimus, which is my favorite mold of a transformers. Like I don't see has/tak reusing these molds ever except when they charge a fortune for an mp version lol.



Or a clear crappy redeco? That costs as much as an mp

[joshimus]

*cough Platinum *cough.

[CanBot]

Right or wrong or otherwise grey (or gray, I always screw that up), I can say this:

It's up to Hasbro to police whatever infringements they may feel are being made against their intellectual property (a phrase that is beginning to sound more and more ridiculous), so the consumer here benefits...that is unless some of the toys are built without having passed certain safety measures for sale in NA, I guess. They get choice, and they don't even have to feel like they're doing anything 'wrong' because if there was something 'wrong' going on, then Hasbro can worry about it. Which is what is happening right now anyway, basically.

The only 3rd party bot I would ever consider would have to be in the current post-MP10 scale. If ten years from now Hasbro haven't reissued a proper Megatron, then I'll have to fill in the void somehow. But then there's ten years I don't get to enjoy having that character on my shelf (first world problems, I know :D )

To be honest, a big reason I don't care much for 3rd party bots are the various discussions on QC (but it's not like Hasbro is without their own fair share of QC problems in the MP line) and the fact that they don't look 'quite' the way I'd like them too.

Apollyon, as great as he looks, just has something...missing, and I can't quite put a finger on it. Much of it has to do with how he looks next to MP10. I can put MP10 next to SW and SS and they all look like they 'belong' together...the angles, their size, so on. Apollyon (and even to some degree Quakewave), from the photos I've seen, just don't have the same effect when posed next to official MP bots...in my opinion.

The entire post-MP10 line scales very well within itself, almost like you have still-lifes of scenes from the Sunbow cartoon.

So what I'm trying to say I guess is that when the right 3rd party Megatron comes along, I'll grab it. Much in the same way that I haven't (and won't) buy the current offering from Hasbro MP05: it's just not what I want.

The whole copyright infringement and the other things ultimately pale in comparison to the above fact. But since I'm buying my MPs automatically anyway, it's not like I'd return one if I didn't like it. No matter what Tracks looks like in hand, I've already pre-ordered and will keep him no matter what. Is that too much trust in Takara?...I don't know, but ever since MP10, I haven't been disappointed in the overall design of the characters, so that's saying something.

Just more food for thought.

[joshimus]

Apollyon, as great as he looks, just has something...missing, and I can't quite put a finger on it. Much of it has to do with how he looks next to MP10. I can put MP10 next to SW and SS and they all look like they 'belong' together...the angles, their size, so on. Apollyon (and even to some degree Quakewave), from the photos I've seen, just don't have the same effect when posed next to official MP bots...in my opinion.

They do have a different presence compared to the official lines. Still awesome though, but I do agree that as much as I love Quakewave, he feels "different" and somewhat out of place, but it also doesn't bother me, but I do see what you are saying.
You have to keep in mind, different 3P companies and different design styles, so they will feel different for that reason alone.