Skids and Mudflap...how does everyone feel about the racism accusations?

[optimusprimus]

As i'm sure you've all heard the new york times, aint it cool news and others have accused M.Bay and others involved in making TF2 brought to the surface negative black stereotypes in their protrayal of these 2 characters..

Manohla Dargis of the New York Times (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Times) said that "the characters [...] indicate that minstrelsy remains as much in fashion in Hollywood as when, well, Jar Jar Binks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jar_Jar_Binks) was set loose by George Lucas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Lucas)."The characters have been given ape-like appearence, speak in street-slang dialog, and confess an inability to read; one of the characters also has a gold tooth."

How does everyone feel about all this?
__________________

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[zuffyprime]

totally racist, but then again, its bay.

[GMfan]

I think it's a movie

[BadJeff]

It's a movie... I don't subscribe to the extra drama. To me it's more "diverse" not "racist"....definitely not racist.

[silent4life]

As a "minority", I didn't think Bay was racist at all towards these characters...it's just the media trying to put hate towards Bay and Transformers. And like the above mentioned it's just a movie, who cares, there are more important things in this world to worry about than robots who are "ghetto" or talking "slang". :)

[Cheers Ian]

I personally think that they're more Stereotypical than racist.

I mean they're supposed to be the Hip-Hop bots. As far as I know there's this rapper called Eminem who's white and is as Hip-Hop as they come.

I think people read too much into stuff.

Cheers!
-Ian

[Aernaroth]

I don't know if I'd go as far as "racist". I'd probably be willing to say it was in poor taste, however.

[onecoin]

I would be in the just a movie crowd, but this film is clearly being marketed to kids. And young ones, look at the toys. RPM's and Gravity Bots. These are some of the youngest target audience toys ever for transformers. And its not just the racial stereotyping, whether it be the the unwillingness to read, obvious ineptitude, showing of thier grillz, using "bitch," "pussy," or wanting to get up in particular asses. Then there's the slow motion strip tease that is Megan Fox, and the handful of jokes that go with that.

I would like to say its just another movie, but its a marketing bonanza, of the level of Star Wars, Pokemon, or TMNT.

"Just a Movie"'s don't have toy lines with thier own launch dates, multiplatform video games, a series of prequel comics, coinciding completely series dvd releases, freezer pops, M & M's, consistent TV shows, multi-station cartoon marathons, multiple TV ad trailers, branded Lollies, bubble bath, sculpable foam soap, bath dyes, M&M portable fans, etc. Its literally in escapable. The movie is obviously not for little kids, but that is so not the message I get when I walk into WM.

Right or Wrong or IDC, at least by talking about it parents and guardians can prepare themselves when thier kids enevitably watch movie and ask "Why is Devastator a Mother F$%&er?"

[jjwankenobi]

Yeesh...it's only entertainment, people.

On the flip side of the coin why isn't anyone claiming Bay glorifies war or is sexist due to the lingering butt and cleavage shots???

Jar Jar and the Twins are merely devices used to reel in the kiddies. Heck, the whole movie is a juvenile fantasy, and not some art house flick!

Are the Twins annoying? Yep.

Are they offensive? Only if you're looking to be offended.

[Magnimus]

I'm usually very aware and offended when traits the mass culture defines as "black" or "urban" (which is code for black) are used in films to demean or create humour when applied to nonhuman characters. Jazz was pretty cringe-worthy when he spoke.

However, Skids and Mudflap didn't bother me. They didn't seem to come across as racial stereotypes as much as cultural stereotypes. With so many kids of various ethnicities adopting an "urban" style and manner of speaking, it's become a style somewhat removed from a strict tie to the black community.

Mudflap and Skids felt more like two kids trying to be "cool" or "hard" by mimicking a cultural stereotype. It's still not cool that anyone who speaks as they do and uses the slang that they do is always portrayed as stupid; however, I think they're far enough removed from characters like Jazz or the Dumbo Crows of old to be strictly a racial stereotype.

[NFossil]

Maybe I had too little understanding of the usual racial stereotypes. I have no idea what they are talking about when they say the twins represent racism.
Actually when I first saw the racist accusation I thought they meant only a Prime can defeat the Fallen, etc.

[Aernaroth]

Maybe I had too little understanding of the usual racial stereotypes. I have no idea what they are talking about when they say the twins represent racism.
Actually when I first saw the racist accusation I thought they meant only a Prime can defeat the Fallen, etc.

That sounds more like classism. Damn Bourgeois Primes keeping down the proletariat Autobots... Where's Fortress Marximus when you need him?

Its completely true that the twins are a stereotype, and an arguably ugly one at that, but yeah, there's plenty of stereotypes in this movie, especially among the transformers. There's 20s Gangster Wheelie, Nazi War Criminal Scalpel, Scrooge McDuck Jetfire, etc.

[Darth Wave]

WTF??? This thread is a waste of time to begin with ( as I sit here typing into it) no offense NFossil... I don't see how a gold tooth would be considered a "racist" thing... heck I have a gold tooth. Am I offended? WHAT???... No!

It's a MOVIE… get over it people. Even if it was stereotyping a group of people, It's called adding some realism to the MOVIE… This isn't directed to make fun of anyone.

These writers need to stop looking at such petty things! Learn to write a better story then to always play the racsim card!

[Aernaroth]

WTF??? This thread is a waste of time to begin with ( as I sit here typing into it) no offense NFossil... I don't see how a gold tooth would be considered a "racist" thing... heck I have a gold tooth. Am I offended? WHAT???... No!

It's a MOVIE… get over it. Even if it was stereotyping a group of people, It's called adding some realism to the MOVIE…

The gold tooth in and of itself isn't racist, but when combined with talk of "punk ass bitches" and "poppin caps" as well as a generally uneducated personality, it becomes a stereotype some could argue is racist.

Also, I don't see how stereotypes make a movie more realistic. Most people in the real world aren't just stereotypes, and most good characters in fiction aren't either.

Also, its not the writers playing the racism card, its critics and reviewers. Though I would agree a better story would have been preferrable for skids and mudflap.

[Optimus_Prime]

I didn't see the movie yet, but I don't think it can be that bad. They have a certain style to them, so what? Ratchet sounds like he has a British accent, is that racist? I don't think so. There was nothing wrong with Jar Jar either!

[ohnaji]

I found the twins to be fun characters. They're comedy relief. I agree with Magnimus, in that the personalitys reflected more contemporary cultural trends.
Everyone in the theatre I saw the movie with seemed to enjoy them. They got a lot of laughs.

[astrana]

Jesus, f**king americans has nothing else to do other than criticizing based on assumptions. American humor is majority based on making fun of stereotypes. if having fun with stereotype jokes is considered racism, then 99% comedians would be flipping bugers at MC donalds

[Razorwing]

totally not racist. The transformers learn the english language on the Intarweb. Skids and Flaps just happend to learn it that way. No biggie.

[Richter]

WTF??? This thread is a waste of time to begin with ( as I sit here typing into it) no offense NFossil... I don't see how a gold tooth would be considered a "racist" thing... heck I have a gold tooth. Am I offended? WHAT???... No!


I wish I had a gold tooth :(

[Darth Wave]

I wish I had a gold tooth :(


Trust me you don't... it's an eye sore!

[Darth Grimlock]

I thought the Twins were funny as hell. Yes at times they were over the top, but that is what "teenagers" are. Even their bios on the toys state this. As for being racist, they were ragging on everyone in the film, didn't matter who it was, was just nice to two small bots having some fun. Kinda reminded me of old school Cliffjumper's attitude.

[Unicrons_Domain]

Oh please! Typical oversensitive people and diaper sniffers! Grow up and quit trying to start sh#% . Enjoy the movie and stop being sooo damn oversensitive and ridiculous!

[Sun Swipe Prime]

I don't think its racist, but it certainly is in poor taste. It's definitely using racial stereotypes. I'm not one to be sensitive about things like this. I love watching Russel Peters, he's damn funny when he pokes fun at racial stereotypes. And yes it's only a movie, but little kids are going to be watching it, and it portrays a negative racial image for them.

Just because it's a movie doesn't mean it can be excused for doing something in bad taste. Yes, the twins are just comic relief, but it's a reflection on the lazy writing that they had to resort to racial stereotypeing for laughs. It like, let's laugh at the guy with the funny accent or speech impediment. He dumb. Can't you tell from his accent?

Just because some one's fed a honey coated turd, and it tasted good going down, doesn't change the fact that it was still a turd.

From my comments, one might think I hated the movie. I didn't, I liked it. It was entertaining, and it was pretty much what I expected from a Michael Bay movie. I've watched it. I've enjoyed it. Now in two days or so, I'll forget it.

[Aernaroth]

Just because some one's fed a honey coated turd, and it tasted good going down, doesn't change the fact that it was still a turd.


That may be the most horrifying yet appropriate analogy I've heard in a long time.

[joshimus]

I think we've come to a point in human nature to just be idiotic over all the wrong things.
Are Mudflap and Skids in bad taste or racist stereotypes? No. They are their own characters.
People complained about Jazz from the first one which I don't get either. Afterall, Scatman Crothers was Jazz back in G1 so the movie kept with that characteristic. Not saying Jazz is black, he's a robot like the rest of the TF bots in general, but Jazz 2007 voiced by a black man is more of a nod to fans.

It's ironic that the real racisim is in the people complaining about Skids and Mudflap. Nevermind the "Mikeayla is there to look good" aspect, which SHOULD be more offensive to women. Nope, focus on 2 bots just because. I'm so sick of this crap. I may have hated Jar Jar as much as anyone else but I don't think of "black guy" when I see him. Just because a black man was his voice doesn't mean Jar Jar is one.
Seriously people? It's enough.

[RNSrobot]

Not racist. Stereotyped. And where I live, there are few black people but boy the whites, reds, browns, yellows and purple try to act "thug" and "street" like the twins. They're 15 year old wannabe punks. *shrugs*

[StarwarsTF]

Oh god does that mean, if I buy them that makes me a racist for putting them to work as a display purpose toy only!!!!!????

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! Aww well just saved $8 (due to Zellers sale) LOL Now I have an excuse not to buy them. :p

[exoskeleton]

a local paper in Saskatchewan, reviewed the first movie and gave it a 0/10 because it was "sexist and racist" they probably say the same about this. if people are looking to be offended, they will be.

same went along with Tropic Thunder. awesome, funny movie, as long as you dont take yourself seriously.

[BeeBoy29]

LOL I thought the twins were great.

[Nightscrabbler]

They were atrocious characters and not funny at all.
I wouldn't call it racist, but I would definitely say that being a stereotype for "wannabe gangstas" as the article says was in tremendously poor taste.

[soundwaveCA]

I'm not sure if I would go so far as to call the whole twins situation racist but their definitely pretty vile and vulgar as characters. If I had kids they are last thing I would want them exposed to.

[Nyghtwynd]

well, slang aside, me and my brother fight all the time, like the twins. Granted there's 6 years and 60 pounds difference ibn me and him, but you get the idea

[General Tekno]

They were hilarious.

Stereotypes? Yes.

Racist? NO NO NO NO NO.

[Dark Rage]

Did a "black" character die in this TF movie again too? (I wouldn't know, I haven't seen it yet).

So, would one call Drift a stereotype of Japanese people?

[Mighty_Galvatron]

Everything is racist! Sheesh. The fact that my keyboard is black is probably racist to someone. Piss off is all I can say its a movie and if I bothers you, well, good for you. I hope it does.

That said, I hated those characters. Hate, I don't use this term unless I mean it. Hate. But it has nothing to do with racism, I just hated them and thought that their existence was disrespectful to Transformers.

[Protoman]

Keep in mind Skids is pretty much Flava Flav. He is not trying to be a black depiction, he is a parody of a real person.

[Mumps]

There is not a single OUNCE of racism in those characters. They are gangster hillbilly's, they aren't black, they aren't white, they have personalities that, actually... more white people have than Black. Yeesh...

I loved those characters BTW.

[chans formers]

after finally being able to see the movie.....what's all this racist hoopla about????they talk/act that way because it's their personalities.nobody called jazz from the first movie a racist act by bay so why call it racist when there's two of them??if anything,all this racist talk is just helping the movie hype:D(imho)

[Dark Rage]

I'd kill for a !xobile-Tron http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52ZjKG-GClo

Or a Fei Long-atron (Alt mode: Honda S2000?)

[Richter]

Everything is racist! Sheesh. The fact that my keyboard is black is probably racist to someone. Piss off is all I can say its a movie and if I bothers you, well, good for you. I hope it does.


Ya you just keep hitting those black keys over and over you racist SOB.

[optimusprimus]

Hey,

Michael Bay has reacted to all the statements regarding Skids and Mudflap and pretty much blamed it on the voice actors...

from IGN.com:

"The director defended the 'bots as being mere comic relief, and placed the blame at the doorstep of the voice actors who played the roles, Reno Wilson and Tom Kenny (http://stars.ign.com/objects/913/913068.html). Bay told the Associated Press that the roles "were kind of written but not really written, so the voice actors is when we started to really kind of come up with their characters."

Bay also said, "I don't know if it's stereotypes — they are robots, by the way. These are the voice actors. This is kind of the direction they were taking the characters and we went with it." He added, "I purely did it for kids. ... Young kids love these robots, because it makes it more accessible to them."


Poor reaction in my opinion...
__________________

[chans formers]

Poor reaction in my opinion...
__________________
x2:D

[Cheers Ian]

Well Tony Todd (a.k.a) The Candyman voiced The Fallen so does that make him Black?

Cheers!
-Ian

[GMfan]

Poor reaction in my opinion...


I think it's a movie

[onecoin]

Hey,

"I purely did it for kids. ... Young kids love these robots, because it makes it more accessible to them."

LAWL. He did "Up in that Ass" "Pussy" "Mother F@$%er" and illiteracy for the children?

I think it's a movie

The movie is just a movie, but the advertising and the merchandise marketed to kids less than 5 years old is a whole other thing.

[Uberman]

I think it's a movie

So was Birth of a Nation.



Mmmmmm, pot-stir-licious.

[RodimusMatrix]

My God ppl its only a movie you guys should be greatful that michael bay even made Transformers. Transformers would have been runined if it was directed by tim burton or james camron or etc. I think Mr. Bat did a excellent job with the first and now the second so if everyone is touchy on this matter then don't see the movie.
________
Toyota Crown Comfort Lpg History (http://www.toyota-wiki.com/wiki/Toyota_Crown_Comfort_LPG)

[CobraCommander]

I'm totally offended by this Movie!!!:mad:

Where the heck are the Latino dancing and crack smoking robots!? :D

That's not racist... but this might be :p
http://www.cybertron.ca/boards/showpost.php?p=135356&postcount=28

[onecoin]

So was Birth of a Nation.
Mmmmmm, pot-stir-licious.

So was Do the Right Thing.

[UltraPrimal]

You know they're just robots right?

I don't think they're any more "racist" than 90% of the characters from Cybertron.

[chans formers]

I'm totally offended by this Movie!!!:mad:

Where the heck are the Latino dancing and crack smoking robots!? :D

That's not racist... but this might be :p
http://www.cybertron.ca/boards/showpost.php?p=135356&postcount=28
lolz!!!that totally fits skids:D

[S.A.A.M.]

Bay is a mild racist IMO.

His director credit in Bad Boys 2 appears over an image of a burning cross...

[Sureshot22]

people really need to stop using the BS racist card crap. I'm sooooo sick of it. I see it played alllllll the time in my line of work. and it's bloody rediculous.

to quote magnumus though :Mudflap and Skids felt more like two kids trying to be "cool" or "hard" by mimicking a cultural stereotype. It's still not cool that anyone who speaks as they do and uses the slang that they do is always portrayed as stupid;

personally i think anyone that talks like that or acts like that. i think is stupid. or retarded. but i dont like to put down mentally challenged people but putting them in the same category as those *cool* stereotyped people.

maybe just my opinion but I don't see how anyone thinks they are cool by acting like that. but i also dont get the whole *lets hang our pants down far enough so our ass is hanging out and we have to walk like penguins* crap either.

maybe im getting old. lol

[JSon]

1. ROTF is going to be the biggest movie of the summer, and probably the year, so what better way to sell a newspaper, magazine or get a web site hit then to capitalize on its success. Good news doesn't sell as well as bad news so yeah....

2. I was also under the impression that they were uh... robots

[Poho]

I don't see how it's racist for a character in a movie to behave how some people behave in real life. That's what acting is. You act like real people.

[Mighty_Galvatron]

The Decepticons, they were racists were they not? All that Autobot hating, and killing! Holy crap. Those racist bastard Decepticons! I boycott Transformers!

[optimusprimus]

You know, i think there are some truths to the accusations..BUT...i don't think it is limited to this movie. These sorts of stereotypes of all races, sexes, sexual preferences ext, are all over television, film, and in music. I think the fact that its a childrens movie, an assumed blockbuster, and by critically despised micheal bay, TF2 is way more under the microscope then other things.

Its there, but, its everywhere. So i'm not saying its ok for him to do it, but, its not just him. Nor do i think ti was intentional, but these things rarely are these days

[chans formers]

The Decepticons, they were racists were they not? All that Autobot hating, and killing! Holy crap. Those racist bastard Decepticons! I boycott Transformers!
lolz!! never thought of it that way till now....:D

[Optimus_Prime]

I don't see how it's racist for a character in a movie to behave how some people behave in real life. That's what acting is. You act like real people.

Exactly, all of the characters who speak English are speaking like real people. How could it possibly be called racist?!

[Aernaroth]

Exactly, all of the characters who speak English are speaking like real people. How could it possibly be called racist?!

And besides, everyone knows stereotypes are EXACTLY like real people!

[Sun Swipe Prime]

I don't see how it's racist for a character in a movie to behave how some people behave in real life. That's what acting is. You act like real people.

They're stereotyping, that's not a reflection of real life. Also, just because something happens in real life doesn't automatically make it ok to show on film and neither does it make it in good taste.

[Sting Rose]

The whole inability to read thing is a moot point, anyway; nobody who wasn't old enough could read the Language of the Primes. I love the twins personally, but yeah, they are cultural stereotypes, and that aspect was what either made or broke the funny for you.

What really got me was how the women were portrayed in this. I mean, I like hot chicks as much as the next person, but yeeeeesh. Girls can be more than dancing, parading eye candy.

Crazy, I know.

[optimusprimus]

I don't think the characteristics of these characters are specific to african americans...its a cultural stereotype not a racial one.

People like these 2 guys exist, im actually sitting beside one right now at work, and hes white.

[Sokar]

What really got me was how the women were portrayed in this. I mean, I like hot chicks as much as the next person, but yeeeeesh. Girls can be more than dancing, parading eye candy.

Crazy, I know.


That bugged me about the first film too. Although to be fair to rotf, that seems to be the case in a lot of films nowadays.

As for the twins, I think people saying that the film is racist would be going a bit far, but at the same time the twins seemed very much to be presenting a cultural stereotype. To be honest, they really remind me of the Wayans brothers show that used to be on tv. Particularly of the one who was in dungeons and dragons (which also seemed to have the same cultural stereotypes being portrayed)

[Team Jetfire]

Some people need to get a life (and this is coming from an adult with a room full of toys in his basement.)

Why is it that movies targeted at Urban audiences or not considered Racist? Why is Russell Peters not accosted for telling racists jokes? Why does Martin Lawrence even have a career at this point? Studios have made BILLIONS on the backs of cultural stereotypes and you know why? BECAUSE THERE IS SOME TRUTH TO IT!!!

Sure, white people can't partake in it, but there are plenty of people, Chris Rock, Russell Peters, That Asian guy from last comic standing, etc, who are able to say the worst stuff about minorities and makes money doing it. Why is this movie any different? I think it is Racist for the people complaining to think that this movie is white; that is, made for white people, who are collectively laughing and making fun of Black people.

[Sun Swipe Prime]

Why is it that movies targeted at Urban audiences or not considered Racist? Why is Russell Peters not accosted for telling racists jokes? Why does Martin Lawrence even have a career at this point? Studios have made BILLIONS on the backs of cultural stereotypes and you know why? BECAUSE THERE IS SOME TRUTH TO IT!!!


Why because what they do is satire. It's poking fun at the stereotypes. What's happening in Tranformers is not. There's a line to be drawn between what comics/comedies do and what transformers does. I don't think that Transformes is racist but it is in bad taste.

As for the twins, I think people saying that the film is racist would be going a bit far, but at the same time the twins seemed very much to be presenting a cultural stereotype. To be honest, they really remind me of the Wayans brothers show that used to be on tv. Particularly of the one who was in dungeons and dragons (which also seemed to have the same cultural stereotypes being portrayed)That's exactly what I was thinking, It's totally like the Wayans brothers.

[Richter]

They're stereotyping, that's not a reflection of real life. Also, just because something happens in real life doesn't automatically make it ok to show on film and neither does it make it in good taste.

Most stereotypes exist for a reason. The reason? Because a large group of people look or act in a certain manner.

Stereotypes become offensive when you start generalizing; when you assume that an entire denomination is a certain way based souly on a stereotype.
My point: stereotypes ARE a reflection of real life. If they didn't have any sort of truth to thier origin, then it would be complete fiction and wouldn't be offensive anyways.

Example: Many white people have terrible rythm and have trouble dancing. Not all of course, but this is where the 'white people can't dance' stereotype comes from. Still a reflection of real life, but a generalization none the less.

[Richter]

What really got me was how the women were portrayed in this. I mean, I like hot chicks as much as the next person, but yeeeeesh. Girls can be more than dancing, parading eye candy.

Crazy, I know.

Also:

All I can say is I'd LOVE to live in Bays vision of the world. Every woman in this movie was absolutely gorgeous.
Even the extras!

[Mighty_Galvatron]

Jar Jar was more tolerable for me than Skids and Mudflap.

I don't find them racist as you know, but I find them to be a disgrace to the Transformers name. The way they act, no Transformer acts that way I don't care what universe they are from.

[Team Jetfire]

Why because what they do is satire. It's poking fun at the stereotypes. What's happening in Tranformers is not. There's a line to be drawn between what comics/comedies do and what transformers does. I don't think that Transformes is racist but it is in bad taste.

That's exactly what I was thinking, It's totally like the Wayans brothers.
So I'm confused, if they are like the Waynes Brothers, and the twins are boarderline Racist, then are the Waynes borthers racist? But they can't cause they are Black right?

Also watch this and please tell me that Russell Peters is not making money off of telling racist jokes. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtbyVFLl_7U

If he was white he would be working at Macdonalds at this point.

[Sideswipe]

On the point of illiteracy:

Didnt Skids and Mudflap say that the could not read the scritures? And thats all they said? Nothing of the english (or any eath)language was brought up.

I also don't recall bumblebee piping up (voice impediment aside) to indicate he understood them either. They had to visit old man Jetfire for the answer.

[Robimus]

On the point of illiteracy:

Didnt Skids and Mudflap say that the could not read the scritures? And thats all they said? Nothing of the english (or any eath)language was brought up.


Exactly. Reading some of this thread before I watched the film left me shaking my head as to where people come up with some ideas now that I've seen it.

Transformers have always borrowed from earth cultures. Look back at G1 Jazz, Beachcomber, Blaster and more. This has always been a common theme.

I really thought upon watching the film tonight that Skids and Mudflap were fun, not anywhere near racist. They are making fun of Vanilla Ice as much as they are making fun of Gangster Rap.

This is due to their individual personalities and them adopting bits of earth culture like Transformers have always done.

I don't buy the racism angle here anymore than I did for Jar Jar 10 years ago.

[Sun Swipe Prime]

Most stereotypes exist for a reason. The reason? Because a large group of people look or act in a certain manner.

Stereotypes become offensive when you start generalizing; when you assume that an entire denomination is a certain way based souly on a stereotype.
My point: stereotypes ARE a reflection of real life. If they didn't have any sort of truth to thier origin, then it would be complete fiction and wouldn't be offensive anyways.

Example: Many white people have terrible rythm and have trouble dancing. Not all of course, but this is where the 'white people can't dance' stereotype comes from. Still a reflection of real life, but a generalization none the less.

Stereotypes are shallow representations of real life. They're cardboard cut outs in comparison to real people. What ROTF does is show a 2D stereotype instead of a 3D characters and in doing so, it helps to purpetuate the generalization in peoples minds. You know what they could have done to satisfy me, ust show the twins for one or two moments not being a stereotype. Show them being slightly more intellegent than the way they act. How about having them be able to read for starters.

So I'm confused, if they are like the Waynes Brothers, and the twins are boarderline Racist, then are the Waynes borthers racist? But they can't cause they are Black right?One, there is such a thing as a person being prejudice against their own race. Two, comedy/satire is what the Waynes brothers and Russel Peters do. Those can be in poor taste too, but what's going on in ROTF isn't isn't really what I'd classify as comedy or statire. You may disagree, but for me it's like the difference between laughing with you and laughing at you. Can you make the distinction?

[TFtoys]

you just reminded me that I forgot to check my Skids has gold teeth painted on it before I brought it.....
Mudflap and Skids do get more shotting time than sideways...does it somehow indicates that Mudflap and Skids will be hard to find in the couple of week?

[Stryfe2025]

As someone said (on here I believe) Skids and Mudflap did not say they couldn't read; just that they couldn't read the older Cybertronian language.
After seeing the movie a few times though, I did find that they do perpetuate the classic "rapper" stereotype, where the discuss "capping someone's ass" and smack talk constantly.I for one enjoyed an extent of the slapstick but found that at times, the infighting between the two didn't fit the entire vibe of the movie.

[Mighty_Galvatron]

Did anyone complain about anything similar for any of the black human characters that were portrayed in the first movie?

[onecoin]

Did anyone complain about anything similar for any of the black human characters that were portrayed in the first movie?

If you mean Jazz. I remembering a handful of complaints.

[Richter]

Stereotypes are shallow representations of real life. They're cardboard cut outs in comparison to real people. What ROTF does is show a 2D stereotype instead of a 3D characters and in doing so, it helps to purpetuate the generalization in peoples minds. You know what they could have done to satisfy me, ust show the twins for one or two moments not being a stereotype. Show them being slightly more intellegent than the way they act. How about having them be able to read for starters.


You're right of course, but unfortunately, none of the characters in the entire movie had any depth whatsoever. It's a little hard to complain about making them multi-faceted characters, especially when there weren't any to be seen at all.

I could see this being a bigger issue if all the other characters developed, while Skids and Mudflap stayed as stereotypes. As it is now, they matched the rest of the cast pretty well.

Even the human characters were just cardboard cutout stereotypes. Sam the typical geek, Mikaela the 'badass' hot chick, Sams parents, the typical suburban mom and dad, Leo the typical paranoid schizophrenic, Lennox the typical by the book marine, etc.

Really, the only human character I found somewhat interesting was Turturros character. The robots of course were just as bad.

[Richter]

If you mean Jazz. I remembering a handful of complaints.

People were kind of upset that the only autobot who was killed was the only 'urban' character in the movie.

[slippy]

its a cultural stereotype not a racial one.

my thoughts exactly

[joshimus]

I was upset only because Jazz is a fav TF of mine. I hoped he'd come back in TF2.
I find the whole "Jazz is black" thing absurd. If anything, they chose a black actor to voice Jazz simply in respects to Scatman Crothers, voice of G1 Jazz. I NEVER considered Jazz black, nor any ethnic background for any robots for that matter.
They have a voice, they have a personality, they are robots. There is no black or white, it's metal machines working with what they chose to emulate on Earth.
The Twins being racial stereotypes, I mean come on now people. You can pick ANYONE out of the crowd in a movie and pull a lame "racist" card.
Maybe I should complain that Optimus sounds like a smoker? I don't smoke, it's not healthy and impretionable youth don't need that. Obviously Cullen was the wrong choice. (this is sarcasm by the way, but my point stands)
Or as someone else posted, geeky whiteboy sam? I wanna complain about that too. I'm white, I take offense to that (again, sarcasm)
This whole PC and race card crap needs to stop. It's a movie, movies are movies. They poke fun at everything, some intentional, some not, but this pathetic game of "oh poor us being stereotyped", people, everyone in some way is being made fun of.
People who complain the most are generally the ones who not only look for racism, but are also racist.

[dak]

if you think mudflap is racist, do you think every white guy that talks like that is racist, or just their personality? same with Skids and his redneck talk.

[Stormrave]

I think these characters are making fun of a subculture, which contains members of all races. I've seen white kids, black kids, hispanic kids, native american kids, and asian kids all trying to act "street cool" and just coming off as idiots. The gold tooth reminds me more of a hillbilly than a grill.

Frankly I find Alice's portrayal as a sex object a lot more offensive than two poser Autobots.

[onecoin]

if you think mudflap is racist, do you think every white guy that talks like that is racist, or just their personality? same with Skids and his redneck talk.

Yes, but to stupid to realize it.

[there_is_a_martens]

Racist? No, not at all. Stereotypical? Oh, yes, I agree with that. They had some funny moments, but personally, they were a bit annoying. Luckily, I didn't feel they had enough screen time to irritate me enough to hate them. I love the fact they were always fighting. Listen, I grew up with a couple of cousins who were like brothers to me. They were brothers to each other, and Skids and Mudflap reminded me of them. If you have a brother who your close with, maybe you can relate. They speak their own language when they're around each other, and they're constantly fighting. Sorry, got off track. It's a movie, people. Relax, they're not racist. Oh, just don't bring your little ones to see this. Thats what Animated is for.

[Crobot91]

People who believe these two portray racist stereotypes have a serious chip on their shoulder and should try to grow up.

[Bruticus82]

Frankly I find Alice's portrayal as a sex object a lot more offensive than two poser Autobots.

Excellent point!

[jacobot]

CFRB 1010 radio topic right now!!!
Played G1 show theme
Over now... Stereotyping maybe..;)

[Uberman]

I think it's largely a confluence of three or four really small and questionable choices that, when taken in conjunction, form a whole that is more "offensive" than anything taken on its own.

Before we heard them talking, didn't everyone think the twins were gonna be more hillbilly? They look it. They look like, well, for lack of a more sensitive term, inbreds. But when taken with the voice-acting and dialect, all of the sudden they stop looking inbred and now look more "simian", which now becomes a marker of racism. Which, not that I wanna get too deep into it, arguably says more about the offencee than the offender. Much of the anchor of the argument comes from the single "We don't do much readin'" line, which, really, when taken in the context of the film is pretty innefensive, 'cause Bumblebee can't read that stuff either, and neither can Wheelie [who, sure, is almost as bad a stereotype as Watto in Star Wars Episode 1*, but that movie is the high watermark for really really bad choices].

I'm not defending any of these things individually. The face designs on the Twins were not inspired, and the voice acting was fine but would have been better taken in another direction. They do not, however, and in my opinion, add up to some implied racial commentary.

EDIT: Fixed this.

[CobraCommander]

Honestly I'm pretty sure Skids and Mudflap are really just catering to much of today's tweens. I'm pretty sure they talk like that now-a-days, heck as I was leaving the theatre last night some kid (with his pants down with a X-tra large golf shirt) was yacking with his buddies that "ROTF was all kinds of Sick" :confused: Yeah, so after some translation apparently his statement implies it was a good movie :D

is almost as bad a stereotype as Whappo in Episode 1, but that movie is the high watermark for really really bad choices].


Who's Whappo? :confused: and you mean from Star Wars Episode 1?

[Uberman]

Who's Whappo? :confused: and you mean from Star Wars Episode 1?

Sorry, Watto from Phantom Menace, yeah. That was a last-minute bonus joke. I shoulda foot-noted it better. And spelled it right.

And correctly connected my stereotypes. Here I was assuming he was an Italian stereotype when apparently he's not. Hence the Wheelie connection.

Either way!

[Sun Swipe Prime]

I think it's largely a confluence of three or four really small and questionable choices that, when taken in conjunction, form a whole that is more "offensive" than anything taken on its own.


I totally agree with this. I was thinking about it (btw I don't think its racist but rather in bad taste), and I think they just had to add something about the twins that broke stereotype, and it would have releaved a lot of the pressure points.

We all know people who act like the twins to some extent, but at different moments, when interacting with them, they break the stereotype and say and do stuff that shows them to be something more.

I think the perfect opportunity was in the much contested "can't read the ancient cybertronian" scene. If they just let the twins drop the "bust a cap in yo @ss" attitude for a second and have them actually be able to read SOME of it, but not anything crutial, it would have given them a little more depth. They would have broke stereotype, and the scene would have been pretty much the same.

Just a thought.

[Robimus]

They had a lot of lines that were beyond the gangster rapper stereotype.............none of them denoting a lot of intelligence, but still.

"It's all about blending in with your surroundings, being stealthy like a ninja" and the like. It's not like every line that came from them was loaded with the "hip" lingo.

[onecoin]

I still hate that their annoying behavior was used as a plot device to find the Matrix. Talk about running out of ideas.

[Optimus_Prime]

^^

Oh no! I got spoiled 2 days before I see the movie!

[optimusprimus]

I'm usually very aware and offended when traits the mass culture defines as "black" or "urban" (which is code for black) are used in films to demean or create humour when applied to nonhuman characters. Jazz was pretty cringe-worthy when he spoke.

However, Skids and Mudflap didn't bother me. They didn't seem to come across as racial stereotypes as much as cultural stereotypes. With so many kids of various ethnicities adopting an "urban" style and manner of speaking, it's become a style somewhat removed from a strict tie to the black community.

Mudflap and Skids felt more like two kids trying to be "cool" or "hard" by mimicking a cultural stereotype. It's still not cool that anyone who speaks as they do and uses the slang that they do is always portrayed as stupid; however, I think they're far enough removed from characters like Jazz or the Dumbo Crows of old to be strictly a racial stereotype.

Totally agree with you on this one

[teruo313]

To me they seemed more of a play on hip-hop culture, not black culture. Honestly, they came off more as 2 teens of (insert any culture here) trying to be a gangster after watching one too many rap videos. Hip hop/rap is certainly not exclusive to one particular ethnicity although in North America it certainly is dominated by one, which is one reason why critics are calling it racist.

For example in Korea, there is a strong hip hop/rap influence in their music, dress, etc. Now if the movie was dubbed in Korean, I wonder if viewers/critics would feel that the twins are making light of hip hop culture or the black community.

Now if you want to talk racisim/racial exclusion. 2 movies have gone by now, filled with giant robots and there isn't a single Japanese guy in sight!?!?!? Talk about missing a very easy stereotype there.....*grumbles* ;)

[onecoin]

hip-hop culture, not black culture

Hip Hop culture stems from Black Culture.

[OneShallFall]

It is totally racist,if you are a racist who thinks that way.I dont understand how it can be.Racism against red and green robots?Idk,never heard of it before.

<-----didnt know ignorance was a race.

[onecoin]

It is totally racist,if you are a racist who thinks that way.I dont understand how it can be.Racism against red and green robots?Idk,never heard of it before.

<-----didnt know ignorance was a race.


Ignorance is the choice to ignore or to lack knowledge. The word does not fit into the context of what you are saying. The word "ignorance" was used a lot in racial issues, because of people who would choose to turn a blind eye to injustices based on race. Again, this is the complete opposite use of the word in your context.

[teruo313]

Hip Hop culture stems from Black Culture.

Yes, I know.
However hip hop culture has since evolved as per my example of how it has made an impact in the Korean music industry. Because of that, to say that the twins are mocking the black community is flawed because that is saying essentially that only black people can act in that manner. One afternoon in a mall filled with teens out of school can VERY quickly disprove that.

[onecoin]

One afternoon in a mall filled with teens out of school can VERY quickly disprove that.

Those kids are mimicking a culture they do not understand.

[teruo313]

Those kids are mimicking a culture they do not understand.

As are the robots in the movie....

[onecoin]

As are the robots in the movie....

And thus creating the stereotype.

[BeeBoy29]

sorry to go abit of topic here, but i jus wanna complement you all with the way u throw down ur words, man it gets so heated sometimes i get to thinkin are u all lawyers or sumtin lol

[teruo313]

And thus creating the stereotype.

What stereotype? Hip hop originated in the black community, that's a fact. Does that mean only black people can then have an appreciation for hip hop? NO. Heck how many hip hop artists out there now do you really think understand where and how hip hop came about. I'd bet well over half of them are just about the $$$$. Yes, they are the largest group that is associated when one thinks of hip hop in North America, but that doesn't make it exclusive. Like I said, hip hop has changed, and became a following and a culture on it's own and now can be enjoyed by various ethnicities and robots.

Also to me, the twins looked more like Cletus from The Simpsons finding a Eminem cd..... but hey, that's just me.

[onecoin]

What stereotype? Hip hop originated in the black community, that's a fact. Does that mean only black people can then have an appreciation for hip hop? NO. Heck how many hip hop artists out there now do you really think understand where and how hip hop came about. I'd bet well over half of them are just about the $$$$. Yes, they are the largest group that is associated when one thinks of hip hop in North America, but that doesn't make it exclusive. Like I said, hip hop has changed, and became a following and a culture on it's own and now can be enjoyed by various ethnicities and robots.

Also to me, the twins looked more like Cletus from The Simpsons finding a Eminem cd..... but hey, that's just me.

What you consider today's Hip Hop is a shell of its former self, meant to sell records while glorifying only portion of the lifestyle.

And your continuation of your own arguments is to mention Cletus? Seriously? You look to rebut an argument about stereotypes by introducing another one? That's just bad form.

[teruo313]

What you consider today's Hip Hop is a shell of its former self, meant to sell records while glorifying only portion of the lifestyle.

And your continuation of your own arguments is to mention Cletus? Seriously? You look to rebut an argument about stereotypes by introducing another one? That's just bad form.

Perhaps, but is what hip hop has become, like it or not.

I find Cletus funny, I didn't find the Twins funny, not because of the whole race issue, but simply found them to be lame. It wasn't a continuation of any argument, it was a statement of whom I felt the twin represented more. You believe they represent a stereotyped black hip hop (again, since hip hop isn't exclusive) community. I believe the twins are a stereotyped white Cletus-esque-omg I just discovered rap community. To each their own. You believe what you want, and I will believe what I want.

*grumbles* I said it before and I'll say it again...how can they not even have a single Japanese guy in either of the movies when it's about BIG friggin robots!! ;)

[racerguy76]

I think these characters are making fun of a subculture, which contains members of all races. I've seen white kids, black kids, hispanic kids, native american kids, and asian kids all trying to act "street cool" and just coming off as idiots. The gold tooth reminds me more of a hillbilly than a grill.

Frankly I find Alice's portrayal as a sex object a lot more offensive than two poser Autobots.

This.
________
Willys Aero (http://www.dodge-wiki.com/wiki/Willys_Aero)

[Optimus_Prime]

sorry to go abit of topic here, but i jus wanna complement you all with the way u throw down ur words, man it gets so heated sometimes i get to thinkin are u all lawyers or sumtin lol

Lol, debating is awesome, isn't it? I'm enjoying this:D

[onecoin]

Perhaps, but is what hip hop has become, like it or not.

Okay. So you agree when I said "What you consider today's Hip Hop is a shell of its former self, meant to sell records while glorifying only portion of the lifestyle." Where only selected points of view are presented for lifestyle and culture with a greater depth. Aka. a Stereotype. I am glad you agree, cause running you in circles was getting a little boring.

[Robimus]

I still can't agree.

I feel like the media attaching the gangster rapper stereotype to all black people through the reviews of the film is far closer to racism than anything the Twins did or said.

[onecoin]

attaching the gangster rapper stereotype to all black people

Well that's just plain wrong.

[Robimus]

That is the media's game though, don't you think? To stir up trouble. They are taking something thats minor at its worst and spinning it to get the loudest possible uproar.

Just like they did with Jar Jar, Watto and Nute Gunray. If an alien character has any hint of humanity, be it from a voice actor or a writer, this is the card they pull.

It sells newspapers and creates a stir around their reviews.

[teruo313]

Okay. So you agree when I said "What you consider today's Hip Hop is a shell of its former self, meant to sell records while glorifying only portion of the lifestyle." Where only selected points of view are presented for lifestyle and culture with a greater depth. Aka. a Stereotype. I am glad you agree, cause running you in circles was getting a little boring.

I like how you have a tendency to only reply to one sentence of any one of my replies and completely ignore the rest. So then allow me to lay it all out one last time.

You also seem to infer a lot about my opinion by the word "perhaps". My point, although I've made it already and you have even agreed to it is that hip hop has changed. It's enjoyed by others, NOT just people in the black community. That's a fact, not fiction. Yes it's commercialized and it doesn't have the same meaning it once had, but it's changed which is what always happens when something goes mainstream.

It's enjoyed by people of various ethnicities not just in North America but around the world. Therefore, to say the characters were being racist towards the black community is something that I do not agree with. I can understand why some might take offense to it, and I can understand, but to me, it's more of a play on the hip hop culture, which ISN'T exclusive to the black community. There are members of all different ethnicities that use the same slang found in hip hop. Now to me, the way the twins talked and acted, they seemed more like the commonly found teens at the mall (of various ethnicities). And perhaps why our opinions differ is based on experience. My exposure to hip hop over the last 5 years especially has been with artists of other ethnicities. Which, is why I do not equate hip hop to the black community and which is why I do not think the Twins are being racist.

Now I know, this isn't going to change your mind, and honestly good on you for sticking to what you believe. Because....guess what? it's all a matter of interpretation. I've interpreted the twins in one light, you have in another. I accept that you believe in your interpretation and I will continue to believe in mine. K thanks bye. :)

[onecoin]

I like how you agree with me, then go to great lengths to disagree.

[Uberman]

I like how you agree with me, then go to great lengths to disagree.

You're kinda that guy, aren't you?

Anyway, this is sort of becoming a dumb argument, becuase you're both just debating semantics rather than anything of any value. And, as you have sagely noted, you're both pretty much on the same page as far as the fundamentals go, but you're slappin' weenies about if it's this word or that word. "Stereotype" and "racism" are parts of the whole fulled by the comfortable laziness of prejudice [being the making of a decision based on the lowest level of critical consideration possible].

Agree on your lexicon and then move on to something you can actually chew on.

[Optimus_Prime]

Now I know, this isn't going to change your mind, and honestly good on you for sticking to what you believe. Because....guess what? it's all a matter of interpretation. I've interpreted the twins in one light, you have in another. I accept that you believe in your interpretation and I will continue to believe in mine. K thanks bye. :)

^^

Finally!!!

I like how you agree with me, then go to great lengths to disagree.

Can't end on a nice note, can you?

Now, the question is this: Has anyone's opinion been changed at all???

[teruo313]

I like how you agree with me, then go to great lengths to disagree.

The only statement that you made in which I do agree with is in regards to the state of hip hop not being what it use to be for better or worse. However that is not the issue of this topic. The issue and reason for our debate is our difference in the perception of the Twins and what they represent. If you can't understand or accept that another has a different view point than you, then that's fine, that's your choice.

[onecoin]

Agree on your lexicon and then move on to something you can actually chew on.

Don't worry he already did.

[Uberman]

Don't worry he already did.

Last word. Nyah!

[Pascal]

Had no problems with the twins at all. As for why they can't read ancient cybertronian: a single human can't read all the languages on Earth (especially ancient ones)... same for robots on Cybertron.

[Zodberg]

I'm more offended by how irritating they were, but not as much as I expected to be when I heard they were "Car Car Binks"

knowing how much Bay likes improvisation and their voice actors, I wouldn't be surprised if much of their stuff was actually ab-libbed and worked into the film.

I don't think they're racist, because there's no implication in their behavior.
if they ended a line saying "ALL PEOPLE OF A CERTAIN ETHNIC DEMOGRAPHIC BEHAVE IN THIS MANNER" or even insinuate it, then yes that would be racist. No, they were just stupid. There's a lot of stupid people in real life, I've met them working in retail. Skids and Mudflap represented idiots, not any ethnic group.
People who call them racist are just sensationalizing.

[JLvatron]

The gold tooth in and of itself isn't racist, but when combined with talk of "punk ass bitches" and "poppin caps" as well as a generally uneducated personality, it becomes a stereotype some could argue is racist.

Also, I don't see how stereotypes make a movie more realistic. Most people in the real world aren't just stereotypes, and most good characters in fiction aren't either.

Also, its not the writers playing the racism card, its critics and reviewers. Though I would agree a better story would have been preferrable for skids and mudflap.

Very well said.:cool:

[JLvatron]

I'm not sure if I would go so far as to call the whole twins situation racist but their definitely pretty vile and vulgar as characters. If I had kids they are last thing I would want them exposed to.

Totally agree.

Hey,

Michael Bay has reacted to all the statements regarding Skids and Mudflap and pretty much blamed it on the voice actors...

from IGN.com:

"The director defended the 'bots as being mere comic relief, and placed the blame at the doorstep of the voice actors who played the roles, Reno Wilson and Tom Kenny (http://stars.ign.com/objects/913/913068.html). Bay told the Associated Press that the roles "were kind of written but not really written, so the voice actors is when we started to really kind of come up with their characters."

Bay also said, "I don't know if it's stereotypes — they are robots, by the way. These are the voice actors. This is kind of the direction they were taking the characters and we went with it." He added, "I purely did it for kids. ... Young kids love these robots, because it makes it more accessible to them."


Poor reaction in my opinion...
__________________

Actually, Bay is NOT blaming the actors in his quote, the journalist is confused. Bay said it was the Actors' direction and he chose to go with that, meaning it's his call.

Unlike the script reading at TFcon (where we choose the actors based on auditions, but the actual reading is not edited) Bay has full control as the movie is not a live play.

It is filmed in several parts, before being edited, and Bay has full directional control at all times where he can tell the actors how to act, edit out parts, or even re-dub the voice over if he wants, before the public sees it.

[jackalprime]

The one thing I dont get is how people peg Mudflap and Skids as rasist. But no one complains or associated any other T former as black or white. I dont see any white activists complaining about jetfires scottish accent and scots slang. People want to see racism in everything. If you go looking for this stuff you will find it.

[jackalprime]

But the fact of the matter is, S&M are not racist, or the idea in itself is not racist. "Racist" means favouring a socially constructed group of people over another, or disfavouring them over another, the latter being more popular. Bay-nor anyone did not disfavour, or favour S&M over any other bot. Nobody got upset when Jazz, who is obviously portraying afro-centric characteristics was introduced in the film. Was this because he was portrayed as a "positive" sterotype?

Are the attackers saying that its okay to portray sterotypes as long as they are positive?

[Team Jetfire]

I thought we got this figured out.

They were not Racist, but Stereotypical of the Urban sub culture. If we can consider that many races make up this 'urban-culture' then we can safely say that the twins can't be racist, without our selfs being racist, because we would be making the incorrect assumption that all 'black people' are part of the urban sub-culture.

[GMfan]

Don't point fingers because there's three pointing back?!?! :O

[Aernaroth]

The one thing I dont get is how people peg Mudflap and Skids as rasist. But no one complains or associated any other T former as black or white. I dont see any white activists complaining about jetfires scottish accent and scots slang. People want to see racism in everything. If you go looking for this stuff you will find it.

I'm pretty sure Jazz has been associated with being "Black" in pretty much every continuity (besides his pretender toy), as you stated in your next post. Blaster always struck a lot of people as sort of an "urban-styled" character as well. I don't think anyone complained though, because they were strong, intelligent, brave characters with interesting personalities, something S&M (jeez, even the acronym is borderline offensive) really weren't.

Also, to be fair, most "white activists" are already regarded as racist, and I don't think a lot of people really take them seriously. And I disliked the use of "accents" in lieu of characterization for pretty much all those characters, not just S&M.

As to S&M though, I don't think you really have to "look for racism" to find their characters distasteful, and I can definitely see where people are coming from with their dislike of them. I don't think they're as much racist as victims of poor writing and the movie's lack of any really significant character development, but its obvious why they'd leave a bad taste in some people's mouths.

But the fact of the matter is, S&M are not racist, or the idea in itself is not racist. "Racist" means favouring a socially constructed group of people over another, or disfavouring them over another, the latter being more popular. Bay-nor anyone did not disfavour, or favour S&M over any other bot. Nobody got upset when Jazz, who is obviously portraying afro-centric characteristics was introduced in the film. Was this because he was portrayed as a "positive" sterotype?

Are the attackers saying that its okay to portray sterotypes as long as they are positive?

Being "black" is not a stereotype. Being a "black, uneducated, hotheaded, clumsy comic relief sidekick" is a lot more of one though. And perpetuating a negative stereotype IS disfavouring one race over another. And yes, relegating a character to a sidekick, comic relief role to a group of brave, stoic characters is disfavoring a character as well.

Furthermore, some people DID get mad over Jazz. I think they were less mad because of the more positive characterization (though his street talk and breakdance transforming probably didn't make those people too happy). But Jazz was also pretty uncharacterized, other than saying "I'm urban, I'm brave, I died first", which makes him somewhat less stereotypical than S&M, if only because he was less characterized as a whole. So I don't think it was a case of positive stereotyping. Do you think its okay to perpetuate "positive" stereotypes? Like what if they gave Ratbat, an accountant, a New York Jewish voice? Or if they made Perceptor sound Asian, since he's good with math?

I think you can have a transformer be reminiscent of earth races, especially in Jazz's case where his entire character is based around a love and obsession with earth culture and trends, but if you just stick to the obvious aspects of a stereotypical cliche, your characters are coarse and distasteful, which is sadly how I felt about many of the new additions in RoTF.

[onecoin]

I'm pretty sure Jazz ....

Agreed with everything you said. But it was all already said in this thread.

[KBlurr]

Well, I've been meaning to give my opinion on these guys. And now, my thoughts.

I don't mind these guys. They're not too bad. As for the stereotype accusations: Yes, they are stereotypes of rap, hip-hop and urban culture. But no, they are not racist stereotypes.

For example, that one part where sam is asking the twins what the symbols on his arm were, but they said they don't do much reading. As a fan of "The Boondocks", I can easily tell that they are non-racist stereotypes.

I didn't see any racist parts about them. Personally, when I first saw Skids' deluxe robot mode, I thought he looked like a goblin. Mudflap's mouth, if they painted the upper lips, then yeah, that would be a problem.

As for the Jar-Jar comparison, I dunno.

When I was young, I didn't see what the big deal was about him when I saw Phantom Menace. I didn't think he was that bad. And just for the record, I'm not a big fan of Jar-Jar Binks myself nor am I saying this to defend him.

Yeah, this is a common problem with today's movies. But just remember, it's only a movie.

[Sun Swipe Prime]

Yeah, this is a common problem with today's movies. But just remember, it's only a movie.

Holy Day of Dead, Zombie thread-orama. But ok, I'll indulge in some necrophilia.

1 - being a movie is not an defence for something to be in poor taste.

2 - "The Birth of a Nation" was a movie too. This may be harsh comparision and a little unfair, but I think it illustrates my point. If you're not familiar with the movie just google the wikipedia entry on it.

[Pascal]

Poor taste to a small fraction of all viewers. Nowadays, people are being oversensitive about every possible topic.

[Sun Swipe Prime]

Poor taste to a small fraction of all viewers. Nowadays, people are being oversensitive about every possible topic.

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it's a duck. Nowadays, some people are lacking in tact.

[onecoin]

it's only a movie.

I really hate it when people say this. Sure its only "a" movie, but film is the art form that defines our era. Motion Picture (film and television) is easily our current societies most distinguishable cultural identifier. The making of films today, with the logistic and number of people involved is comparable to the construction of monuments (this is not an exaggeration for effect). We may be seeing a flood of film, but our society will be based on the films we watch and demand. Whatever entertainment evolves into in the following centuries, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say "Star Wars" will be studied in English classes everywhere.

I am pretty sure that people who got to watch Shakespeare, thought it was just a play. Centuries later, we would still study the plays for emotional range, characterization, the perfection of the 5 acts, pacing, the near deconstruction of the 4th wall and its prose. The same innovation can be applied to the cinematography and narrative delivery of Citizen Kane, the editing and special effects of King Kong, or the method and mumbling of Marlon Brando.

[justprime]

Since the Transformers Robot forms are from there native planet,.. that they scan the Web for this planets language HOW CAN THIS BE RACIST...
As for the reality come on its a movie ,entertainment,..the media/people are nit picking as for overtones most movie, tv shows and commercials have some sort of overtones,.. all you have to do is look real hard,... let the imagination wander and you can see what you want,.. maybe the media/people need to get a life and lay off all this B.S.. enjoy the movie for what is was and if you don't like it well thats ok as well. Justprime

[Pascal]

In Transformers Animated, I was completely outraged by Perceptor being depicted as the typical emotionless, cold and calculating scientist.

[sarmick01]

I don't know bout you guys but I enjoyed the movie. Why can't people just enjoy stuff without dissecting the crap out of it.

[Prowl_2009]

I am with sarmick01, I really enjoyed ROTF and in no way was I offended by Skids and Mudflap. Sure, they were stereotypes of Urban culture, but come on, it's nothing to get all heated up about, right? I wish people would just let all this crap about ROTF (racist twins, wrecking balls) just die already! Enough is enough! If you were offended by these things, fine, but for God's sake, keep it to yourself from now on!

[Richter]

Comparing ROTF to Citizen Kane and Shakespeare is taking it a little far. That's when all of these arguments lost any credibility they had left. Skids and mudflap may be a stereotype, but not a racial stereotype. Stereotyping is just bad character writing. It was just the following: the writers don't have the ability to develop actual three dimensional characters, so they have to fall back onto two dimensional stereotypes for character types.

[onecoin]

I would never compare a piece of garbage like ROTF to Citizen Kane.

[Sun Swipe Prime]

I don't know bout you guys but I enjoyed the movie.

1 - I enjoyed the movie too, but I don't turn a blind eye to it's flaws either.

Why can't people just enjoy stuff without dissecting the crap out of it.2 - It doesn't take dissection to see how some people can percieve the twins as being in poor taste because it's right there on the surface. If someone can't see that, they're sticking their head in the ground like an ostrich.

I am with sarmick01, I really enjoyed ROTF and in no way was I offended by Skids and Mudflap. Sure, they were stereotypes of Urban culture, but come on, it's nothing to get all heated up about, right? I wish people would just let all this crap about ROTF (racist twins, wrecking balls) just die already! Enough is enough! If you were offended by these things, fine, but for God's sake, keep it to yourself from now on!

Well, you don't have to read/participate in this thread if you're sick of this discussion. But telling others to go die and to shut up isn't a very mature or logical thing to say. Trying to censor people because you don't agree with what they say is a rather facist like attitude to take.

[Autobot Hound]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prowl_2009 http://www.cybertron.ca/boards/images/cybertronca/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.cybertron.ca/boards/showthread.php?p=170712#post170712)
I am with sarmick01, I really enjoyed ROTF and in no way was I offended by Skids and Mudflap. Sure, they were stereotypes of Urban culture, but come on, it's nothing to get all heated up about, right? I wish people would just let all this crap about ROTF (racist twins, wrecking balls) just die already! Enough is enough! If you were offended by these things, fine, but for God's sake, keep it to yourself from now on!



Well, you don't have to read/participate in this thread if you're sick of this discussion. But telling others to go die and to shut up isn't a very mature or logical thing to say. Trying to censor people because you don't agree with what they say is a rather facist like attitude to take.


mmmm i think Prowl 2009 meant for the subject to die, not the ppl. Cause i don't wanna die yet. I still need to have a son and name him Kalel. lolzzzz....okay back on subject. I agree with you on the topic of trying to censor ppl. Should not and could not be happening.

As for the Twins, i am unaffected by the underlining stereotype. I thought they were pretty cool and funny.

[TTT]

YES!!!
I found the twins and JarJar to both be VERY ANNOYING ! :D

The whole ghetto/gangsta thing sells quite well so why not throw it out there for the kiddies to gobble up.
I grew up on an island (pop. 10,000) and half the kids in my high school went gansta when the craze finally made its way there, they gobbled it up with all the whack clothes & lingo.
All these white kids that have never even been to a city are now ghetto/gangsta, quite amusing to say the least.

If it sells, it will be sold.

[onecoin]

YES!!!
I found the twins and JarJar to both be VERY ANNOYING ! :D

Fans find Jar Jar annoying. Episode 2 and 3 less Jar Jar.

Fans find Jazz a racist stereotype. ROTF, create two racist stereotypes and make them more annoying than ever.

[Robimus]

Fans find Jar Jar annoying. Episode 2 and 3 less Jar Jar.


Maybe some fans do, some don't.

I like Jar Jar and based on the amount of Jar Jar figures I've sold to kids over the years I'd say a lot of people like Jar Jar.

It's a stretch to paint all fans with one brush;)

[Slag4444]

This is completely ridiculous! The media knows absolutely NOTHING of TF history. If they wanna nitpic about ethnicities, they should do their homework first. Cybertronians have had foreign accents & gestures since the very beginning. What about Outback with the Auzzie accent, Perceptor with the British accent, not to mention Rumble & Frenzy with the "street punk" accents. And then there's the most noticeable dialect of them all, Blurr, who talks a million miles a minute. Of course this isn't racism! It's just the way the All-Spark created them, and let's just accept & appreciate diversity, and move on. Ignorant idiot! This is just another excuse for causing controversy because they have nothing better to report. I'm not saying Bay is perfect (no one is) but come on! It's just a movie!

[onecoin]

I lost count on how many times we have discussed this point. Having an accent and having gold toothed "Gangsta" stereotypes that call everything pussy, stupid, being lazy and can't read, are not the same.

Bay would not take accountability for their characterizations and passed the blame to their voice actors. The voice actors refuse to comment on what Bay called "their characters." Bay later went on to say, "He did it for the kids." Well no shit. Giving kids what the like and giving them what's appropriate are two different things.

[JLvatron]

2 - It doesn't take dissection to see how some people can percieve the twins as being in poor taste because it's right there on the surface. If someone can't see that, they're sticking their head in the ground like an ostrich.


very true.

In fact, I disected the movie somewhat to find parts i LIKED. (truthfully there was alot)
Didn't need to disect for parts I disliked, they were right in-our-face.

[onecoin]

(truthfully there was alot)

Its sad. In this 138 minute non-epic. I think there is enough footage to make a decent movie. Too bad all that crap had to be thrown in too.

[Pascal]

I'm against an edulcorated world, especially on screen. Like it or not, there are plenty of people like Skids and Mudflap in the real world. Just like their are tons of rednecks, dumb blondes, bums, geeks, etc. Stereotypes aren't made up. Ça prend de tout pour faire un monde.

[Baryonyx]

IBay would not take accountability for their characterizations and passed the blame to their voice actors. The voice actors refuse to comment on what Bay called "their characters." Bay later went on to say, "He did it for the kids." Well no shit. Giving kids what the like and giving them what's appropriate are two different things.

The racist aspect of the characters (which is, to my mind, obvious and indefensible) was played up by the studio. I have a feeling the controversy contributed quite a bit of extra money to the box office gross, actually, similar to the death of Heath Ledger.

I didn't mind the design of the characters (especially the wonderful ice-truck design which should not have been abandoned) but the voices, accents, and racial undertones made them really, really unpalatable to me.

Honestly, I don't think anyone set out to offend (which is why nobody cops to making so many people angry) but they certainly hit the mark. The whole movie is full of awful stereotypes, but these two were the most in-your-face.

[Sun Swipe Prime]

I'm against an edulcorated world, especially on screen. Like it or not, there are plenty of people like Skids and Mudflap in the real world. Just like their are tons of rednecks, dumb blondes, bums, geeks, etc. Stereotypes aren't made up. Ça prend de tout pour faire un monde.

I don't think we need a totally clean white washed world on screen either. But just because something is present in the real world doesn't mean it's always appropriate to be present in a film. It's in the real word therefore it's ok to be on film is not a defence. Hasn't this been brought up like a bunch of times already? Why is this non-point being hammered on when it's indefensible. Because by that way of thinking, it's totally ok to show/say anything that's in real life. I don't know about you, but I can think of a bunch of horrible things that I don't want to see or hear on screen.

[Pascal]

Yeah, nothing's more horrible that 2 robots acting funny.

[Sun Swipe Prime]

Yeah, nothing's more horrible that 2 robots acting funny.

Is that the best you can do? For the next movie, why don't we get two robots put them in flood pants, suspenders, and coolie hats and have them say, "I give flied rice today. It veeerrry special. Numbahh one good, A-1 ok." all through out. That would be totally funny wouldn't it? Give them big white buck teeth and super thin eyes. Have them transform first into a chinese food delivery truck that says "suck my eggroll - no msg" Then have them transform into tricked out hondas with airplane wing spoilers. Call them Fender bender and Shoulder Check. Oh you know what would really be funny, what if they can't drive a lick? They're the worst drivers of all the autobots. They're always running into shit because they don't follow/ don't know the rules of the road. Man that would be sooo friggen funny. But they're awesome at math and shit. Make human alliance figures of them with senior citizen drivers.... oh man, I'd laugh my ass off.

[Pascal]

I actually laughed hard reading your post. :)

They could also have french poutine-formers speaking english with a thick accent. They could also transform into a hockey stick. Or an igloo.

EDIT: Or a frog. :)

[JLvatron]

Come on, Pascal.
Sun Swipe?

At this point you're just going back n forth.
Settle down, boys.

[Sureshot22]

Is that the best you can do? For the next movie, why don't we get two robots put them in flood pants, suspenders, and coolie hats and have them say, "I give flied rice today. It veeerrry special. Numbahh one good, A-1 ok." all through out. That would be totally funny wouldn't it? Give them big white buck teeth and super thin eyes. Have them transform first into a chinese food delivery truck that says "suck my eggroll - no msg" Then have them transform into tricked out hondas with airplane wing spoilers. Call them Fender bender and Shoulder Check. Oh you know what would really be funny, what if they can't drive a lick? They're the worst drivers of all the autobots. They're always running into shit because they don't follow/ don't know the rules of the road. Man that would be sooo friggen funny. But they're awesome at math and shit. Make human alliance figures of them with senior citizen drivers.... oh man, I'd laugh my ass off.


Sorry i see your point but i actually did laugh my ass off at that. and i think it would be hilarious in the movie also. but im not one to get offended by anything like this i watch movies for it being a movie.

oh and my thoughts on this topic.

*grabs stick, walks up to horse. smacks horse with stick and see's that horse doesn't move. moves on.*

[brr-icy]

Sorry i see your point but i actually did laugh my ass off at that. and i think it would be hilarious in the movie also. but im not one to get offended by anything like this i watch movies for it being a movie.

oh and my thoughts on this topic.

*grabs stick, walks up to horse. smacks horse with stick and see's that horse doesn't move. moves on.*

agreed 100%,
and i'm actually suprised this thread hasn't been locked yet,

[Sun Swipe Prime]

Sorry i see your point but i actually did laugh my ass off at that. and i think it would be hilarious in the movie also. but im not one to get offended by anything like this i watch movies for it being a movie.

See that was sort of my point in it. Things can be tactless and a bit funny at the same time. I laugh at tactless things all the time, but it doesn't stop me from realizing that they are tactless, even if I'm not offended by them.

oh and my thoughts on this topic.

*grabs stick, walks up to horse. smacks horse with stick and see's that horse doesn't move. moves on.*Thank you. I'd love nothing more than to put a bullit in the brain pan of this zombie mofo of a thread and burn the corpse.

And Pascal, if I've said anything that's crossed the line, I apologize. Obviously, this is a topic that can bring out the fire in everyone. Somebody bury the horse because this will be my last post in this thread.

[onecoin]

I think the issue is still the same.

Racist Stereotypes, foul language, sexual themes and general potty humor exist in a lot of media and pop culture, especially movies. The problem with ROTF is that it is so heavily marketed to kids, and young kids at that, its completely inescapable.

[JLvatron]

*grabs stick, walks up to horse. smacks horse with stick and see's that horse doesn't move. moves on.*

Aaak!! Dude! You might wanna know that saying is for a dead horse, not just ANY horse you walk up to! :D

[Pascal]

And Pascal, if I've said anything that's crossed the line, I apologize.

Oh, no worries man, it takes a lot more to outrage me. :)

[Richter]

Is that the best you can do? For the next movie, why don't we get two robots put them in flood pants, suspenders, and coolie hats and have them say, "I give flied rice today. It veeerrry special. Numbahh one good, A-1 ok." all through out. That would be totally funny wouldn't it? Give them big white buck teeth and super thin eyes. Have them transform first into a chinese food delivery truck that says "suck my eggroll - no msg" Then have them transform into tricked out hondas with airplane wing spoilers. Call them Fender bender and Shoulder Check. Oh you know what would really be funny, what if they can't drive a lick? They're the worst drivers of all the autobots. They're always running into shit because they don't follow/ don't know the rules of the road. Man that would be sooo friggen funny. But they're awesome at math and shit. Make human alliance figures of them with senior citizen drivers.... oh man, I'd laugh my ass off.

Goddamn, you should write for bay!

[onecoin]

Oh, no worries man, it takes a lot more to outrage me. :)

I'll keep trying.

[JLvatron]

Goddamn, you should write for bay!

No need to insult a fellow board-member! :D

[terrordrone]

The racist aspect of the characters (which is, to my mind, obvious and indefensible) was played up by the studio. I have a feeling the controversy contributed quite a bit of extra money to the box office gross, actually, similar to the death of Heath Ledger.


Baryonyx got it right.

Everything done in hollywood is done because there was a demographic for it.

Some of us went to TF ROTF for the amazing acting ability of megan fox (and slowed down running scene) and some of us went for those twins.

Either way it meant $$$$ for Bay and middleman etc etc

Somewhere some way a studio expert who gauges public opinion and spending habits of consumers by region, age, tax brackets said it was a great avenue for revenue.

And you bet your life they are gauging the aftermath and discussing the next profitable stereotype (or whatever you want to call it -- a "reflection" of a profitable popular cultural norm) for the next movie.

If you dont like it --- well, THEY GOT YOUR MONEY anyway yuk yuk