New TFcon Commander Statement / Universe Divided Lithograph Available to NonAttendees

[Super_Megatron]

The TFcon website (http://www.tfcon.ca) has been updated with a new statement regarding the news of the Henkei Commander Set:
While we at TFcon were never consulted by FansProject as to offering a deco similar to Powered Commander to others before they started production on their Henkei version, since becoming aware of the situation this week we have contacted FansProject to create a verbal agreement that can satisfy the Asian fans and the businesses that FansProject have already entered into arrangements with, while still protecting the exclusivity of our product and the interests of our attendees. Unfortunately, the original agreement with FansProject in place in regards to our exclusive was not met to the standard we expected, but we wish to thank FansProject for their willingness to alter their plans to try and satisfy the fans across the globe and wish them the best in their future offerings.

TFcon is now offering non-attendees a chance to own the Alex Milne TFcon 2009 Universe Divided Lithograph. Please email us for details.

[Super_Megatron]

The TFcon website (http://www.tfcon.ca) has been updated with an official statement regarding the news of a Henkei Commander Set:
We at TFcon wish to extend an apology to any attendees or fans who feel slighted by recent events concerning the release of a Henkei Commander Set. We at TFcon were unaware of any intention of FansProject to release the set (with or without changes), and had been informed that this colour scheme would be exclusive to our convention. We regret that this is not the case, and hope that the actions of FansProject will not reflect poorly on our show, as they are outside of our control.

[CobraCommander]

I'm cool with that, I can't blame you guys if you didn't know.

FP... tsk tsk :mad::(:confused:

[UltraPrimal]

I don't blame TFCon. I blame FansProject. It's a shame. Up until this morning I loved FP and would buy anything they put out. Now I'm conflicted. I'm pissed that they're re-releasing Powered Commander, especially so soon. If they wanted to get more out of the mold, why not re-release a version of City Commander with all the accessories of the Shadow and Powered versions? Like a "perfect edition" then re-release Shadow Commander with the same some time later, like 6 months to a year. And then a "Perfect Edition" Powered Commander after that. That I wouldn't have a problem with. But they're doing this not even a month after TFCon.:mad: Booooo, FansProject. BOOOOoooo!

[jourdo]

I cannot imagine anyone blaming TFcon for this. Everything falls into the lap of FP on this one.

[Tech Spec]

Blame TFCon??? HEEEEELLLLLL NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!! Fans Project are the real F-Ups here.

[Nemesis Predaking]

I'm torn on how to feel about this, We should have seen it coming after the Botcon 07 (Henkei) Seekers.

In the end, I'll still pick up "Protector", after all they are a business first & foremost.

[Magnimus]

Makes me wonder what kind of language was used when TFCon and Fan's Project made the arrangments to have Powered Commander a figure at the show. Did Fan's Project ever officially agree to make the figure an exclusive and did TFCon and FP agree on the definition of exclusivity?

Even if FP left some kind of loop hole to release the figure, releasing a figure in an exclusive paint scheme but only with some chrome is a pretty poor showing on FP's part. It's barely different.

[Dropkick]

Henkei Power Commander?? what is it about?

[Green Lantern]

Has FansProject Confirmed anything yet? or is it all rumor.

[jjwankenobi]

Henkei Power Commander?? what is it about?

Haven't you heard?

http://www.cybertron.ca/boards/showthread.php?t=15511

This is a SNAFU, for sure, but not TFCON's fault.

[General Tekno]

Has FansProject Confirmed anything yet? or is it all rumor.

Yeah, they have.

It sounds like the accessories are TFcon exclusive still, though ( the mold used for TFcon was destroyed) and the colormatching/deco is for the Henkei Convoy.

[onecoin]

I don't think an apology is necessary. TFcon is not responsible for FP. And FP has the right to do whatever they want with that mold. I like that you guys feel bad and are sorry for it, but its also like admitting some wrong doing is being done and its not.

Nobody, knew Premium format TFTM products would be made when the orginal ones were released. And I don't remember Hasbro apologizing.

FP is a small company. And I for one would like them to milk everything they can out of the CC mold, if it means that we will keep seeing such incredible product from them.

[hugh_da_man]

What was the agreement signed with FP with regards to exclusivity? I'm having a hard time blaming FP for this without knowing what exclusivity agreement really existed.

I still think it was impressive to get the PC set as an exclusive for TFCon regardless of a henkei themed release. I just think it's not fair for TFCon to put it on FP when no one is privy to the actual agreement but TFCon and FP.

[UltraMagnus69]

now I wonder if TFcon will invite them back to 2010? I would think TFcon would not, otherwise it would just make them look a part of the whole mess. Thats just my opinion.

[Bruticus82]

Well, now that we know the accessories are exclusive, that makes me feel somewhat better. It's also been confirmed the deco will match Henkei, and not classics prime.

I think we just all would have liked to know this going in, or finding out far in the future, rather than finding out so soon after the convention when we were led to believe otherwise.

I wouldn't have a problem with TFCon inviting them back. Although I would prefer an apology from them, and an effort to be more clear in the future.

[Darkspeed]

Looks like everyone else has said it before me... No one blames TFCon for what's happening, and FP shouldn't have announced the Powered Commander as an exclusive. And although I'm glad for the chance to own a set again, I can't help feeling I'd prefere the TFCon version.

[Big Filipino]

I don't blame the TFCon organizers either and I'm glad they did post this note. I think it was the right thing to do given all the questions. I put all the blame on FP for not being forthcoming with this fact with the organizers. That was poor form on FP's part.

[chans formers]

I don't blame the TFCon organizers either and I'm glad they did post this note. I think it was the right thing to do given all the questions. I put all the blame on FP for not being forthcoming with this fact with the organizers. That was poor form on FP's part.
totally agree with what b/f wrote.it's not tfcon's fault in any which way or form.if i told a dealer ship that i will only use this custom color on this one vehicle for them,then go behind their backs and respray another car with that same color,I'M at fault,not the dealership.so yeah,i dont think this will affect anybody's view of tfcon,fansproject though.....diff story.(i still like what f/p does,just not how they do it.)

[EnragedCoconut]

If this was FPs intention all along, they shouldn't have allowed the PC to be sold as an "exclusive".

It irks me even more that these Henkei plans were not included in the future product demos they had at their table in the dealer room. It makes it seem like an intentional move on their part.

Thankfully its a good toy for a good price. I don't think i'll be purchasing any FP product in the future. Too slimy, IMHO.

EC

[BeeBoy29]

Thank u for the apology TFcon!! Although you guys should not apologize for this because it was sooo not your fault! Who's fault it was were those boogers at FP :/
An apology from FP themselves would be nice if u ask me.

[hugh_da_man]

Thank u for the apology TFcon!! Although you guys should not apologize for this because it was sooo not your fault! Who's fault it was were those boogers at FP :/
An apology from FP themselves would be nice if u ask me.

They sort of apologized over at TFW

Originally Posted by FP_Day
First of all THANK YOU for those who supporting us since the beginning and
we are SORRY if we disappoint anyone in anyway.

Re-paint were never our first intention. Every day we receive e-mail asking if
we are/can re-release CJ upgrade kit,CC and PC. We tried to improve our
work every time. People might say/think that we only change a little here
and off we go and have something new to make more money. It take us a long
time to design and do color tuning...etc for every project. Because we are just
a small fans group. We need to pay to have some of the work done for us
and most of the thing cost us starting at the thousand dollar mark. For
example: the plug cover include with SC. No one will display the SC backward.
So which mean "most" people will just leave them in the bag. But if there a chance
which make ONE fan who mind the hole in the back. We will do it and make it prefect.
Being a true fan and collector. We take every small parts carefully.
Another example is the power-cube case which only available with the TFcon
PC. We only included 7 power-cube in the case. WHY? Because in the
instruction booklet one power-cube were use.

For the mold:
Yes, it's destroy. This is between agreement by different party to
prevent counterfeit and to maintain a high quality control. Every project
start new. That's why we are making small to no money for every project.
Even if we make some money, they will all end up for the next project.

Seeing the price goes higher everyday:
We do feel happy in the beginning knowing how much people like our project, But
it upset us more in a way. Not that we should release more in the first
place. Not that we should sell it higher in the first place. It is that
knowing people has to pay more or can no longer afford to enjoy our work.

Please, we are Fansproject. All project are start by Fans for Fans. If
anyone has comment please let us know as we are trying to learn and improve.

[BeeBoy29]

My bad I did not see that.

[Jeepmanhastj]

I'm getting a lil peeved at the scenario that TFcon made anyone who wanted an extra one pay for admission with each figure regardless.

Figures should have been sold separate from admission on its own, while still having the choice to combine prices.

I wondered if they were going to come out with a version for the Henkei Prime (the one I actually had at the time) and everyone with almost 100% certainty said - exclusive - no other ones will be made.

I would not have bought the TFCon exclusive if I had known the Henkei PC version was coming out.

The Henkei PC repaint will obviously look weird with a classics Prime if thats the majority out there.
I can see why they (FP) is making them for the Jap market so that they have a version for their HEnkei Primes but they should have been up front to everyone at the TFcon.

Did TFcon never have the idea to ask if FP would reproduce this again when this was all being planned??
First thing I would have asked is "would any other variations of it be made?"
If these molds cost so much to make
even at (say the toy cost $120) $120*500 = $60,000
They must have broke even.

Its not hard to introduce a new plastic colour liquid into these forms.
after the initial TFcon 500 run they probably stopped the machines - put in the new colours and whipped out the next 500 or 1000 or 2000 pieces.

So that said was Henkei Prime available in numbers as great as the Classics Prime?

[hugh_da_man]

Wait a second...can someone from TFCon who dealt with the whole Fans Project thing comment on whether or not they told you about the possibility of making a "japanese" version? What was your response to them? I've heard things that make me question the wording of this TFCon statement.

By the way, after hearing about all the trouble Fans Project went through to get this exclusive for TFCon, I'm kind of surprised by the reactions of a lot of people. Did the TFCon organizers not make note at the con of the extra effort that FP put into getting this exclusive ready in time?

[faustx]

I'm getting a lil peeved at the scenario that TFcon made anyone who wanted an extra one pay for admission with each figure regardless.

Figures should have been sold separate from admission on its own, while still having the choice to combine prices.

I wondered if they were going to come out with a version for the Henkei Prime (the one I actually had at the time) and everyone with almost 100% certainty said - exclusive - no other ones will be made.

I would not have bought the TFCon exclusive if I had known the Henkei PC version was coming out.

The Henkei PC repaint will obviously look weird with a classics Prime if thats the majority out there.
I can see why they (FP) is making them for the Jap market so that they have a version for their HEnkei Primes but they should have been up front to everyone at the TFcon.

Did TFcon never have the idea to ask if FP would reproduce this again when this was all being planned??
First thing I would have asked is "would any other variations of it be made?"
If these molds cost so much to make
even at (say the toy cost $120) $120*500 = $60,000
They must have broke even.

Its not hard to introduce a new plastic colour liquid into these forms.
after the initial TFcon 500 run they probably stopped the machines - put in the new colours and whipped out the next 500 or 1000 or 2000 pieces.

So that said was Henkei Prime available in numbers as great as the Classics Prime?

I'm not quite ready to let TFCon off the hook on this, until a full explanation of the contract with FP is made and confirmed, and FP is beyond reprieve as far as I am concerned.

When I heard about the exclusive I was basically disinterested. I was also very skeptical about the "exclusivity" and felt sure another version would show up. I talked about it with several people Friday night at the show. Unsure of whether an armour set could really be worth $160 I inquired with both convention staff and FP staff in no uncertain terms, as to whether the item would ever be re-released in any market under any conditions.

I was handed an unequivical "NO" in every case, and this was at one point backed up with the now infamous "broken mold" comments. As a result, I bought 2 sets, and sold them at cost to people at the show who really wanted them and had missed out. Then I decided a few days later to get one after all, because I wanted to suit up my prime and then see if I liked how it looked. So I never lost out on this at all, but I can understand how anyone who did has every right to be upset.

If either party knew about the upcoming Asia release at that point, their moral and legal responsibility was to clarify the plans and the semi-exclusivity of the armour set. Uttering lies or misleading people to ensure sales are made is the furthest thing from a "for the fans, by the fans" attitude possible and FP DO NOT have the right to do whatever they want when promises are made.

They may have a legal right, depending on their contract (or lack thereof?) with TFCON, so I'd like to hear more about what exactly was agreed on. Legal or not, it's still low and I've lost all respect for FP's claims of being a fan driven non-business, which is a party line they serve all over their site and marketing materials. For the record, I don't want these guys back at the next TFCON.

p.s. According to the FP response over at TFW2005, they are claiming they only decided to do this 2nd release once asian fans complained. This is unacceptable...and also highly unlikely given their claims of broken molds, etc. Further, the people claiming these 2 sets are totally different things, are plain silly. It's the same set, with chrome, end of story. The UM and SC sets are not the same story...they are overall totally different colour schemes, and are for different characters, not just different versions of a character in seperate markets. No one would have bought it at $160 at the show if it was coming out 2 months later for $90 + shipping. At the very least we deserved the right to make up our minds while properly informed.

My 2 cents....james

[Pascal]

True that. If I had known a Henkei version of the trailer was to be released, I would have never traded my CC (no offense dude, you know what I mean! :)) and bought that Classics Prime to go with it as I already had Henkei Convoy and only collect Henkei. I would have sold my CC/Magnus set here or on Ebay, bought Henkei PC and used the balance to buy something else.

[Jeepmanhastj]

Hey faustx, you wrote in not so many words, almost the same thoughts I had in another thread and that I'm having now about this whole issue.
Kinda sad that no official statement that clarifies this "situation" has come to light.
People are probably trying to get their stories straight before they come out and say something concrete about it.

It just burns to know that the efforts alot of people put into going to the TFcon and thinking we had an exclusive piece in their collection has just gone *poof* in a matter of weeks.

Like you said Pascal - I already had the Henkei - would have just bought the Henkei PC and that would be that.

[hugh_da_man]

True that. If I had known a Henkei version of the trailer was to be released, I would have never traded my CC (no offense dude, you know what I mean! :)) and bought that Classics Prime to go with it as I already had Henkei Convoy and only collect Henkei. I would have sold my CC/Magnus set here and on Ebay, bought Henkei PC and used the balance to buy something else.

I'll trade you my MISB CC for your PC :)

I feel for all the people who would've rather had the Henkei over the TFCon but it's like premium movie figures...I would've rather waited for the premiums but Hasbro would rather I buy two of every mold.

I think people who got the exclusive and want the Henkei are in a prime position though (pun intended). You can probably still easily get $200+ for your PC and rebuy the henkei one at the lower price...you'll probably make money off the deal if you got yours for $160 since a lot of people still want the TFCon one.

[faustx]

It is NOT like classics vs. henkei, or premium movie figures at ALL.

Hasbro never promised us at any point that their products were exclusives with special value, or that they would NOT re-release those figures, or offer better paint, or that Takara wouldn't elect to use their Japanese license to do their thing...and in fact, we all know they are businesses with a profit motive and that they will feed us repaints until we refuse to buy them.

Which is exactly why there were skeptics asking legit questions about the topic, who were lied to, or misled, or experienced sins of omission at the very least.

And FP has freely admitted that they changed their mind in their TFW2005 post, so people can get off the "did they really promise anything horse"....they've said they did, and they then went another way when another profit motive appeared.

They can claim "for the fans" all they want now...it's hollow to me...if they really want to do something special for Asia, pick another colour scheme entirely and do it up.

Even better if its really a fans project, and has no profit motive, have them open the books and show us the #s...no harm if they aren't in it for the money right?

[hugh_da_man]

I see what you're saying James but I don't think they meant that they never intended to do a Henkei Commander. I believe they're saying they never intended to just do repaints so they improve the Commander line every time they make a new one. It's not just a repaint it's a whole new figure with new molds.

I don't think we'll have anything to worry about after all of this. From the sounds of it FP will just stop if people are going to act like this. These guys do this stuff on the side and have full time jobs.

I believe them when they say they do this for the fans. I don't need them to open their books since I'm sure every dollar that they make goes into the next products. There is no way you'd be able to do what they are doing without some kind of money in the bank.

[dak]

http://www.fansproject.com/

[Robimus]

The link doesn't say anything Dak(other than "About Powered Commander")...did they erase something?

[Code of Honor]

- In regards of our Japanese Version Commander -

By admin | May 13, 2009

We, Fansproject, noticed that a discussion regarding the D.I.A Commander (Japanese Version Commander) have been growing rapidly and negatively on various forums. We are deeply sorry if any fans are upset / disappointed when they see the discussion topic. I hope you could spend the next few minutes to read the following and have a better understanding of the situation.

Fansproject is a group of fans who love to play, modify and design our dream toys. We have experienced in designing and manufacturing but not sales and marketing. We love to share our joy and happiness whenever we have some exciting ideas but we could never put these on the hands of general fans at our own power. Therefore, we can never tell if our designs will ever be produced and reach your hands.

We have no intention to keep re-coloring our design, particularly our City Commander. In designer’s point of view, we always play around with the colors to see how it looks and therefor always be one or two colors more favorable than the rest. There have been numerous inquires regarding whether the black and the red color scheme of City Commander will be released after people seeing our test shots at last year TFCon. However, we cannot make any promise unless an ordering request is confirmed. We have a mutual agreement, verbally, that there will not be another Powered Commander which is identical to the TFCon Exclusive Version. In order to make this convention item more unique, we have included a briefcase (which is a meaningful accessory explained in the comic) and suggested to have some graphical paint job on the sides of the trailer which, unfortunately, was discarded by TFCon and replaced with a simpler sticker sheet. At the end, there is the Powered Commander trailer with slightly different coloring than our test shots.

We produced this Powered Commander by request. If the supply of this item is running short; price of this item raise to double or more in a day; you are not able to get one for yourself, we are deeply sorry but there isn’t much we can do. The best we can do is to hope that there will be a repeat order from the same buyer or there will be a different buyer who is looking for a similar item to relief the high pressure in demand. In this case, an Asia-Pacific wholesaler shows interest on the Powered Commander. We have kept our mutual agreement with TFCon and made the following changes:
- Japanese version will have chrome parts to match with other Japanese products
- Japanese version will have different color scheme or design
We understand all the concern about the coloring of Japanese version. We aim to find a mid tone to match with both US and Japanese version, just in case if a fans wish to use either version armor onto either version op.

We don’t release any details of the new color change is because we are still working hard and try to find the best way to shown the difference between TFcon version and Japanese version; especially in truck form which has “Tfcon exclusive” sticker that can be apply on the side of the truck. We wish to give Japan/Asia fans to enjoy a different feel of our D.I.A Commander.
To further avoid any conflict between these two versions, the Japan version will not be available to any North American retailer or wholesaler. If any North American retailer or wholesaler orders through Asia dealer, please kindly understand that’s actually something out of our control.

In our designers’ point of views, we will be very upset if my D.I.A Commander doesn’t come with the briefcase because it will always be “incompleted”. We could never imagine fans will be disappointed to own a “completed” version of Powered Commander. Again, we are designers and production coordinators, we do not involve in sales and marketing, and retailers asking price is also beyond our control.

Some fans have questions us about the mold being destroyed. At the first place, we have to deeply apologize for any mis-leading and unclear explanation we made before. So we are very sorry and hope that we can explain this clearly again. “Mold” means the steel injected mold which we use to produce toys, where “Mold” will be modified all the time but won’t be destroyed because this is part of the company capital. Some Fans ask about whether we will destroy the mold of Tfcon Powered Commander and we say yes; it’s really our fault of getting misunderstanding around this point. What our meaning is actually that we will never produce this Tfcon pc again unless Tfcon request to do so. So, there will never be anymore Tfcon version production to be made after the convention. That was what the misunderstand we made to fans and we really, really feel sorry about this point. Certainly, we all clear about this mutual agreement for this exclusive production’s for Tfcon version and we will never, never break the rule. That’s why we get the compromise from tfcon for a different version pc before we go ahead for that another version. No matter how, this is still our fault of misleading fans about “mold destroying” and we hope this statement is clear enough for everyone.

Sadly, some mold do not held their ground and damage during production. Our very first project CJ upgrade kit; which was using resin-casting mold and cannot be kept for a long period of time, and that’s why this project is forever retired.

Based on fans reaction from the forums, we had an important lesson and would like to apologize to anyone who doesn’t feel comfortable for owning the TFCon Exclusive Powered Commander. We have to admit that we had a bad coordination this time but some information is just strictly confidential between Fansproject and our buyer that we could never release ahead of time. In the future, we would try to avoid similar request as much as possible; we would have black and white instead of verbal confirmation/agreement; we would have to think more thoroughly from fans point of view before making any confirmation/agreement; we would work harder on our designs; we would work harder to keep up the quality of our products.

You have seen some of our new ideas at this year TFCon and there are plenty more on our desks. We are ready and would love to move on to new items. But, as we have always said, we couldn’t tell if these designs will ever become a real product and reach your hands. These are design by fans, and made for fans. If someone believes there are enough support in the market, the design will become a real product. If the supply is running short, then someone has under estimated fans preferences. If we have a promise to keep, we will always do. If majority of fans don’t like it, these will remain on paper at our desks.

We have no intention to harm or disappoint anyone and do not wish to start any argument anywhere. We always let our project talk for itself; if a fan like it Thank You, but if you don’t please let us know and we will improve. We are only interested for the love of toys and designing toys. If you have any questions or comment, please let us know. This is the best way for us to learn and improve.

[Bruticus82]

"Certainly, we all clear about this mutual agreement for this exclusive production’s for Tfcon version and we will never, never break the rule. That’s why we get the compromise from tfcon for a different version pc before we go ahead for that another version."

I'm not certain, but this suggests that TFCon approved a compromise? Am I reading it wrong?

[Robimus]

Based on fans reaction from the forums, we had an important lesson and would like to apologize to anyone who doesn’t feel comfortable for owning the TFCon Exclusive Powered Commander

I suspect they have entirely missed the point based on their statement.

That’s why we get the compromise from tfcon for a different version pc before we go ahead for that another version.

??????????????

[jourdo]

"Certainly, we all clear about this mutual agreement for this exclusive production’s for Tfcon version and we will never, never break the rule. That’s why we get the compromise from tfcon for a different version pc before we go ahead for that another version."

I'm not certain, but this suggests that TFCon approved a compromise? Am I reading it wrong?

That is how I'm reading it as well. As long as TFcon is happy with the result, I'm good.

[hugh_da_man]

They're saying they mentioned the creation of the Japanese version to TFCon staff at some time and TFCon said it would be fine to create a Japanese version provided it was different enough.

Apparently they wanted to add things to the trailer that would make it definitely unique to TFCon but it was shot down and a sticker was provided instead. Basically, they didn't want to give the same deco as the test shot but that's what they ended up giving because that's what TFCon wanted.

So when TFCon's statement says that they had no knowledge of any other Commander toys being created, what do they mean considering FP says they told you?

[CobraCommander]

Dun, dun, dun... the plot thickens! :p

[venksta]

They're saying they mentioned the creation of the Japanese version to TFCon staff at some time and TFCon said it would be fine to create a Japanese version provided it was different enough.

Apparently they wanted to add things to the trailer that would make it definitely unique to TFCon but it was shot down and a sticker was provided instead. Basically, they didn't want to give the same deco as the test shot but that's what they ended up giving because that's what TFCon wanted.

So when TFCon's statement says that they had no knowledge of any other Commander toys being created, what do they mean considering FP says they told you?

So whats going on then? Did the person FansProject deal with, on TFCon's side, didn't inform those who made that statement for TFCon? Then all this is, is a big misunderstanding it seems? TFCon could just state that, if it really is just a communication problem, which happens.

[UltraPrimal]

I really don't like this. Firstly there's the whole thing about this should have been a TFCon exclusive. But apparently there was some mis-communication. That's the problem when dealing with people who don't speak the same language. Second they're calling this Japanese version "D.I.A. Commander". Which sounds to me like they're ripping off the D.I.A.Clone thing TFCon worked so hard to put together. And third, the differences are unclear. The only thing we know is that the Japanese version will have chrome instead of silver paint. They did mention something about having different colors. And they also mention something about the briefcase, but I'm unclear as to what they're saying. Are they saying this version won't come with it? And what about the missile launchers? I think if those parts were created specially for the TFCon exclusive, they shouldn't be included wth other versions.

Plus this just pisses me off because I'll probably end up buying this version too. And it'll probably cost me even more than the TFCon version.

[Articuplex]

I'm not a fan of FP any more! Not even their springer-defender or Rodimus trailer will be on my purchase list. As pointed out by Ultral Primal, D.I.A. ... if only government were that transparent! There are two sides to every story, and majority of responsibility, imo, goes to FP, who knows how long beofre TFCon they were planning to do this, or soon after TFCon... I want to say that the opinions and suggestions on here about this issue are very well stated. Thank you guys for saving me some typing.

[venksta]

And what about the missile launchers? I think if those parts were created specially for the TFCon exclusive, they shouldn't be included wth other versions.


Actually, the missile launchers and brief case were not a request by TFCon. FansProject added those in by themselves, to make the figure better in their eyes. As they said in their statement, they had planned for a painted deco on the side of the trailer, but TFCon said no to it, so it ended up with the TFCon sticker.

[Pascal]

I'd like to hear back from the TFcon people now. Other than the vague half-apology frontpaged, we haven't really heard back from those guys yet they post here daily. The TFcon people seem to say they were unaware of the new version but the FP people seem to say otherwise. Someone is lying here. No matter who, not cool.

[CobraCommander]

As they said in their statement, they had planned for a painted deco on the side of the trailer, but TFCon said no to it, so it ended up with the TFCon sticker.

Assuming the painted deco was the TFCON logo, then I'm fine with them providing the sticker so that the end-user is given the choice to apply it or not. However if the painted deco was something else, I'm very curious to find out what it was?

[venksta]

Assuming the painted deco was the TFCON logo, then I'm fine with them providing the sticker so that the end-user is given the choice to apply it or not. However if the painted deco was something else, I'm very curious to find out what it was?

Same here. Though, I can see that maybe they wanted to paint the "TFCon" logo on the trailer, and TFCon decided it was better to make a sticker to give fans a choice? Thats if they were planning a TFCon logo. If it was something else, then yeah I'm curious to find out as well.

[Magnimus]

http://www.fansproject.com/

Wow. Their statement is really rambly and poorly written.

[Echotransformer]

Something I'm noticing here: three groups from the Transformers Community 'not feeling good'. The three groups?

1. TF Con organizers
2. Fans Project
3. Collectors

Oh wait...no one is feeling good!? Hurt feelings and misunderstandings abound. Sounds like a big mess worth leaving behind and moving on, because no one is coming out a winner on this one...

Something else I'm noticing here:

1. TF Con organizers trying their best.
2. Fansproject trying their best.
3. Collectors/fans trying to deal with and understand what transpired here.

To me, the Fansproject apology goes a long way to helping me feel better. I think some of the wording is writen that way because it was translated or lacks a bit of experience in writing english.

They are looking at what we have to say, listening, and trying to make good. They are showing integrity here. TF Con too!

I'm interested to see what FP does with the JDM PC. If its different enough, it might even be another version worth buying. If it's 'just chrome' that's the difference...well...so it goes...and most importantly, if it helps them make more cash to build that Rodimus tooling...well that's good news too me (I think many people assume they're building all the projects shown at TF Con...but I would think the tooling investment is HUGE an the more they can make on one design the better...why does Hasbro repaint so much? Just to make enough cash to pay for the tooling!)

And either way, gosh...what a great TF Con this year. Even all this can't take away from the buzz (TFcon>Botcon) that we all felt before and during the show.

There...finally commented about all this.

[hugh_da_man]

Before I write off FP as liars I'm interested to see what the TFCon people say about FP's statement. FP has pretty much said that they made TFCon aware of the new PC...I don't know when they made them aware in the timeline but it sounds like someone at TFCon should have heard about this before all of us did.

I hope this is just a big misunderstanding and everyone can just move on.

[teruo313]

After reading FP's latest statement, I feel I'm left with more questions then answers. Namely who's really telling the truth, as a number of points in their statement contradict what TFcon said in their statement. Either that or you can chalk this all up to miscommunication on both ends and while I wish to believe that to be the case, in all honesty it's a bit hard to swallow.

Also FP's comment about the agreement being verbal only. Was there really nothing written in the purchase agreement about FP not releasing another Powered Commander or something similar?? If that is true, it seems naive at best to have simply gone on their word alone.

Hope we see a rebuttal from TFcon soon.

[faustx]

Something else that hasn't been fully explored yet?

If I'm not totally mistaken, FP basically confirmed that they are open to creating new products based on orders from distributers, TFCON, whoever.

What?!?!?

How can anything be exclusive from these guys, ever, if they are willing to redeco and re-release a product whenever someone tosses money on the table.

In that scenario, OF COURSE an asian wholesaler, seeing the ebay prices for the TFCON set is going to "order" an asian version (assuming all that happened after the fact, which doesn't seem to match with recent statements.)

And btw, FP totally has control over whether asian distributors sell units overseas...they can handle that easily in contract and make sure only people willing to take legal risks will pass them back to BBTS, etc.

Actually, I've got a fantastic idea...if the only thing between us and control of these guys is our decision to place a mass order of at least 500 units, let's just bang some ideas around and decide what we want next. Heck, designers at our beck and call who don't care about keeping their toy art truly rare would be amazing. Let's assume that on these $90 items, the real price to market is something like $70usd. So we just need $35k across the entire fanbase to place a custom order?

I've got the first $10k...who else wants in on the biggest group buy ever?

(I'm only half joking here people...and if companies like Sideshow worked this way, there would be hell to pay.)

[venksta]

Something else that hasn't been fully explored yet?

If I'm not totally mistaken, FP basically confirmed that they are open to creating new products based on orders from distributers, TFCON, whoever.


Its not like that. For example, Shadow Commander, it was something they were working on. The BBTS, due to the success of City Commander, asked FP if they could order something, and was then shown Shadow Commander. So BBTS ended up ordering a bulk of the run, and this allowed FP to make it. Otherwise, it would of just been a hand painted testshot until some else ordered it. They can't make the stuff until someone puts a big order in.

[CobraCommander]

I'm in on a big order of cliffjumper upgrade kits... put me down for 2x :p

[Unicrons_Domain]

How do I get one of these lithograph's?

[Unicrons_Domain]

Nevermind! :D

[venksta]

Good to see TFCon's new statement. Even though both parties statement's say something different, its good to know they are trying to work together on this issue.

[hugh_da_man]

I still don't understand how there is such a big difference in the explanation of what happened between the TFCon and FP statements. Are we chalking this up to a misunderstanding/miscommunication or is TFCon saying that FP hasn't lived up to the original exclusivity agreement (or even suggesting that FP circumvented the original agreement) which made a new agreement necessary?

I'm glad to see things are getting worked out though. FP and TFCon are both pretty important to the fandom!

[Seeker]

if i m the organizer of the con i wouldnt want to ruin the reputation. TFcon is getting rip off fr this event among with the fans. FP should be the one that say sorry.

[hugh_da_man]

if i m the organizer of the con i wouldnt want to ruin the reputation. TFcon is getting rip off fr this event among with the fans. FP should be the one that say sorry.

FP already apologized as well and it sounds like it was all a misunderstanding. They thought they told someone at TFCon and they thought this release would be different enough to still make the TFCon one an exclusive. Misunderstandings happen and from what I've heard FP worked extremely hard to get this ready for TFCon. Would people have been happier without a Powered Commander at TFCon? At least FP is listening and doing their best to make changes that will make everyone happy (well not everyone, but most people).

[Vangelus]

Dear Cybertron.ca,

Thank you so much for closing the older thread and directing the chatter to one with newer info in it.

Semi offtopic but it makes for such easier threadskimming. :D

[UltraMagnus69]

Well FP just screwed TFcon out of a majority of 2010 "exclusives" at the next show, that will go unsold because of this.

[Phalanx]

Eh, as long as it's a cool exclusive at a good price, I'm willing to give all involved another chance. Like I said in the other thread, lessons learned on both sides, I hope.

If it's handled well, it's possible to instill trust in any concerned buyers.

Well thought out, written contracts, use of unique TFcon characters/colour palettes etc. will help.

[Rogue_Optimus]

That also depends on what/who does the exclusive for next yr. Willing to bet that if it's FP again, there'll be a slow seller. At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if they don't even show next yr after this.

[Phalanx]

I'm not going to be too upset with FP so long as this appears to be a misunderstanding, and they're working to resolve it in a way that makes everyone happy.

Unless there was intent to deceive, or some sort of pattern of behaviour is established, I'm not going to hold it against them.

I hope that TFcon and FP can work through this, and if so, I'd be happy to see them at the con again next year.

[Icetron]

How do I get one of these lithograph's?

Was wondering the same thing...looks really nice. :eek:

[GMfan]

Please email us at tfcon@mountaincable.net for details ;)

[venksta]

That also depends on what/who does the exclusive for next yr. Willing to bet that if it's FP again, there'll be a slow seller. At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if they don't even show next yr after this.

I hope FansProject isn't involved again next year with TFCon's exclusive, or just plain showing up at a booth. I will also expect fans will take any future items claimed as an "exclusive" with a grain of salt. So maybe calling any future event item as "TFCon version" would be great, unless they secure something that has a canadian paint job, that we know our friends in asia won't want. :D

[onecoin]

Its a completely unfair situation for FP. They make an exclusive. And scalpers take advantage of the situation, like they always do, andthe item starts creeping into the $300 mark. Based on standard mark up FP was probably selling the exclusives to TFcon for about 80$. Meanwhile this item clearly has demand and they aren't making any of that money to keep thier business running.

How would you feel if you sold an item for 80 bucks, and some opportunist on ebay was making $350 on them? When current market value says that the 500 made are worth more than $150000, don't they deserve some of that money? Money that will keep thier business running?

If anything I think the mistake was letting people buy multiples. Or not limiting the multiples they could buy. I mean there are guys on Ebay with 10+ available. Those guys are making over $3000 on 10 pieces and FP made all 500. They could have been offered extra to members of TFW, Cybertron, or have Canadian retailers sell them at a fair markup, with a kick back to TFcon, so the money goes back to the community and not some pigs wallet.

In the end money talks and I want FP in business. By Fans For Fans. Not By Fans For Scalpers.

[Lysist]

Its a completely unfair situation for FP. They make an exclusive. And scalpers take advantage of the situation, like they always do, andthe item starts creeping into the $300 mark. Based on standard mark up FP was probably selling the exclusives to TFcon for about 80$. Meanwhile this item clearly has demand and they aren't making any of that money to keep thier business running.

How would you feel if you sold an item for 80 bucks, and some opportunist on ebay was making $350 on them? When current market value says that the 500 made are worth more than $150000, don't they deserve some of that money? Money that will keep thier business running?

If anything I think the mistake was letting people buy multiples. Or not limiting the multiples they could buy. I mean there are guys on Ebay with 10+ available. Those guys are making over $3000 on 10 pieces and FP made all 500. They could have been offered extra to members of TFW, Cybertron, or have Canadian retailers sell them at a fair markup, with a kick back to TFcon, so the money goes back to the community and not some pigs wallet.

In the end money talks and I want FP in business. By Fans For Fans. Not By Fans For Scalpers.

Somebody save this somewhere! This is the greatest example of hind sight being 20/20 that I have seen in this entire bloody drama. This would have been the perfect way that this could have worked out. Botcon and The Transformers collectors club already do that! Cybertron.ca could to, we could even workout group buys like the the Grimlock deal.

I would have been happy to pay a mark up if I knew that both Fansproject, TFCon, and Cybertron.ca would be the ones benafiting. Can anyone see how this would be a bad thing?

FP can do larger runs because it will get into the hands of more collectors! TFCon/Cybertron.ca would grow due to increased revenue. More fans would get a really cool, but still a True Canadian exclusive.

This idea is all win, IMO

[FreedomGundam]

Its a completely unfair situation for FP. They make an exclusive. And scalpers take advantage of the situation, like they always do, andthe item starts creeping into the $300 mark. Based on standard mark up FP was probably selling the exclusives to TFcon for about 80$. Meanwhile this item clearly has demand and they aren't making any of that money to keep thier business running.

How would you feel if you sold an item for 80 bucks, and some opportunist on ebay was making $350 on them? When current market value says that the 500 made are worth more than $150000, don't they deserve some of that money? Money that will keep thier business running?

Not sure I agree with you on this part. The agreement between FansProject and TFCon was whatever-number-of-dollars per unit, and that's that. It has nothing to do with whether or not they "deserve" it, especially when you're talking about secondary market prices.

I'm not economist, but I'm pretty sure that when it comes to supply & demand, there is no "deserving" anywhere in the equation.

Also, I'm not sure if I'm reading it right; but in your opening statement, I'm understanding it as you're saying "the scalpers are the reason that FansProject should (re)release a slightly different Powered Commander for mass retail"? Because if that's the case, that's some weird logic there. It seems to me that you're lumping "high demand" with "scalpers and price gouging" as more or less the same thing.

I mean, yes, they do need money to keep their company running. But you can't just look at it like "My agreement with my client is to make only 500 units at $80 each. But wait! The consumer is reselling theirs for $300! I should pump out more units (despite the agreement with the client) so I can get in on some of that cash!"

If anything I think the mistake was letting people buy multiples. Or not limiting the multiples they could buy.

This I do agree with.

In the end money talks

And this is probably the final word in these discussions.

And as many had said already: it's not the fact that there'd be another (slightly redeco'ed) Powered Commander being released that bugs us; it's the fact that we were told multiple times that it wasn't going to happen.

[teruo313]

Its a completely unfair situation for FP. They make an exclusive. And scalpers take advantage of the situation, like they always do, andthe item starts creeping into the $300 mark. Based on standard mark up FP was probably selling the exclusives to TFcon for about 80$. Meanwhile this item clearly has demand and they aren't making any of that money to keep thier business running.

How would you feel if you sold an item for 80 bucks, and some opportunist on ebay was making $350 on them? When current market value says that the 500 made are worth more than $150000, don't they deserve some of that money? Money that will keep thier business running?

If anything I think the mistake was letting people buy multiples. Or not limiting the multiples they could buy. I mean there are guys on Ebay with 10+ available. Those guys are making over $3000 on 10 pieces and FP made all 500. They could have been offered extra to members of TFW, Cybertron, or have Canadian retailers sell them at a fair markup, with a kick back to TFcon, so the money goes back to the community and not some pigs wallet.

In the end money talks and I want FP in business. By Fans For Fans. Not By Fans For Scalpers.


I'm sorry but the first part of your post doesn't make any real business sense. FP has absolutely no entitlement to and no concern from a profit standpoint with regards to secondary market. Yes, they need to make money and stay in business, that's why they charge a markup on their products to retailer stores and TFcon. They set a price that they are going to sell their product to them and that's that. Whatever price it goes go for there after on eBay isn't of their concern with regards to profit. However seeing how much they go for does give them some indication of demand though and can perhaps influence future business decisions.

By your logic then, if say the demand for the product was low and eBay prices were around $80, they should be offering a refund to purchasers who bought it at $150. If they have some sort of entitlement to profits, then they should have a liability for losses.

I can understand your underlying arguement that scalpers are bad. Although personally I have nothing against them. However to say FP is deserving of any money from the secondary market defies most business sense.

I do agree in a way about limiting the amount that people could purchase. Although even with that there's the counter arguement that several people bought multiples for others who weren't able to attend. So maybe instead of limiting what could be purchased at the door, instead have non-attendee sets available like how botcon does it.

[Pascal]

Its a completely unfair situation for FP. They make an exclusive. And scalpers take advantage of the situation, like they always do, andthe item starts creeping into the $300 mark.

It's the market that decides the value, not the scalpers. I've seen PC listed for well under $200 and auctions still ended over $300. Something rare is ALWAYS going to cost less at the time of release and more later unless said exclusive is a POS. The FP people are no retards, they were well aware of that if they'e the TF fans they claim they are. They've been in the hobby for long, they know how it works.

Also, that "all fans are asking for it and deserve it" thing that I read everywhere is stupid. An exclusive is an exclusive and has to stay so. You snooze, you lose. That's life. I missed out on the fantastic 2006 Botcon set, now I would have to sell a kidney to afford it. Entirely my fault.

[onecoin]

I'm sorry but the first part of your post doesn't make any real business sense. FP has absolutely no entitlement to and no concern from a profit standpoint with regards to secondary market.


I think what I said is being conveyed incorrectly. Especially when I said deserve. The "deserve" is reserved for the overall market. I am not saying they should get any of the money from the current sales of thier product at $300+. That's just retarded.

I am saying, in complete business sense as it relates to all business, which is why we have protection laws for this. Is that they created a product, and created the demand for that product, and hence created a market for that product. This marketplace has money being exchanged in it, since they are the creators of that product and money is being exchanged because of it, they are fully entitled to reap the rewards of the presence of their product in the marketplace.

I have a feeling someone is going to attack the "product" term, but this can also relate to products lines, series or brands under ownership of the business.

I also can't understand why we as a community would attack a small company like this. Hasbro/Takara, Gentle Giant, Sideshow, Mcfarlane, Diamond etc. do this all the time. And we get pissed, but not boycott backlash pissed. And even if we did, we as a community could not take down a companies like that. But in this case if we are not careful, we could. A company with products that we admire.

[Pascal]

I also can't understand why we as a community would attack a small company like this. Hasbro/Takara, Gentle Giant, Sideshow, Mcfarlane, Diamond etc. do this all the time.

To mass/re-release convention exclusives weeks after said convention?

[onecoin]

To mass/re-release convention exclusives weeks after said convention?

Is the time frame relevant? What if it happened a year from now? or 5?

[teruo313]

I am saying, in complete business sense as it relates to all business, which is why we have protection laws for this. Is that they created a product, and created the demand for that product, and hence created a market for that product. This marketplace has money being exchanged in it, since they are the creators of that product and money is being exchanged because of it, they are fully entitled to reap the rewards of the presence of their product in the marketplace.

I also can't understand why we as a community would attack a small company like this. Hasbro/Takara, Gentle Giant, Sideshow, Mcfarlane, Diamond etc. do this all the time. And we get pissed, but not boycott backlash pissed. And even if we did, we as a community could not take down a companies like that. But in this case if we are not careful, we could. A company with products that we admire.

But the secondary market isn't price derived from them completly, it's based on supply and demand only. They supplied X number of units where demand warranted Y number of units which in this case was much higher. However hindsight is always 20/20 so yes we can say now that maybe TFcon could have asked for 1,000 units, but at the time of the arragements, this would be risky. At the time, they were asked for an order of 500 units, they set a price, TFcon paid and everyone was happy.

I don't think anyone has argued that they aren't entitled to reap the rewards of the remaining demand for a Powered Commander nor their hard work. It's the way in which everything went about. As the FP statement directly contradicts what was said by TFcon with regards to knowing or not not knowing of their intent to create an Asian market version. If they were upfront about it, this entire issue would have been avoided.

Don't get me wrong, I admire their products a great deal, however the way they went about doing business is what I question. Sure other companies do it, but does that make it right?

From a PR standpoint, time frame does play a factor as has been suggested by Pascal. There would still be demand for the product a year later. However there probably wouldn't be as much negativity for their decision.

[Pascal]

Is the time frame relevant? What if it happened a year from now? or 5?

That never happened in the Transformers universe for the same company. That's all that matters.

[onecoin]

Asian market version

Exclusivity is constrained by market though. Yamato Toys and Kotobukiya use this fact when releasing exclusive figures in Japan to the favor of North America.

Bome figures with are provided in limited quantities in Japan (runs less than 500, in one case less than 50) are released in North America with seemingly no limit to quantities. Kotobukiya does similar things with its Starwars PVC statues. They also number Japanese and American releases of the Fine Arts statues seperately. Yamato Toys does this with a majority of its redeco.

I gotta think too, that another thing we need to consider is that information about the TFcon exclusive is coming from TFcon, not from FP. And information about the new PC is coming from FP only. I personally do not know the exact details of the agreement and constraints dealing with geography and timeline.

[onecoin]

That never happened in the Transformers universe for the same company. That's all that matters.

On the lighter side. I think that never happens because there are so many freakin names!!!!

[Lysist]

I still think that we need to step back and talk about ways that this kind of situation could be avoided in future. What is being done, is being done. That we know. 2010's TFCon Exclusive still needs to happen and right now we need to face the facts that FP is doing the best Non-Has/Tak TF stuff out there. Do I want them to make another TFCon exclusive, yes. Do I want to see them make some money, yes.

I think that as this is their first exclusive and they had some lessons to learn. TFCon organizers now know that they need a system and Iron Clad contracts. Great! If we had a chance to do this again I still think that we could do a show price, say 160. A second batch is sold through a group buy or Canadian Retailer at mark up. FP still make a set number but make more to deal with the demand. Convention goers get one for pre-registering and are entitled to buy another one at the show. If you didn't pre register then you just get one. At the same time whichever retailer who is selected sells the other batch on their site for slightly more to non-attendees but still having the priority going to Canadian buyers for the duration of the convention. Any remaining are sold worldwide after the weekend.

I really think that this is an amicable way to do this, going forward. Everyone wins and there are no hard feelings.

[jourdo]

Also, that "all fans are asking for it and deserve it" thing that I read everywhere is stupid. An exclusive is an exclusive and has to stay so. You snooze, you lose. That's life. I missed out on the fantastic 2006 Botcon set, now I would have to sell a kidney to afford it. Entirely my fault.

Whoa.... Voice of reason??? What is that doing here? Well said Pascal, and absosmurfly the truth here.

[FreedomGundam]

I still think that we need to step back and talk about ways that this kind of situation could be avoided in future. What is being done, is being done. That we know. 2010's TFCon Exclusive still needs to happen and right now we need to face the facts that FP is doing the best Non-Has/Tak TF stuff out there. Do I want them to make another TFCon exclusive, yes. Do I want to see them make some money, yes.

I think that as this is their first exclusive and they had some lessons to learn. TFCon organizers now know that they need a system and Iron Clad contracts. Great! If we had a chance to do this again I still think that we could do a show price, say 160. A second batch is sold through a group buy or Canadian Retailer at mark up. FP still make a set number but make more to deal with the demand. Convention goers get one for pre-registering and are entitled to buy another one at the show. If you didn't pre register then you just get one. At the same time whichever retailer who is selected sells the other batch on their site for slightly more to non-attendees but still having the priority going to Canadian buyers for the duration of the convention. Any remaining are sold worldwide after the weekend.

I really think that this is an amicable way to do this, going forward. Everyone wins and there are no hard feelings.
I dunno. This method doesn't give me the "vibe" of "Oh! We're getting a TFCon exclusive!"

I think people need to realize what an "exclusive" means: very limited run and/or available to select people. You don't see FunPublications going back and catering to the demand for their Botcon stuff. They make an exclusive for Botcon, and that's that. That's how exclusives should work.

[onecoin]

Hasbro still makes the toys though, they own the molds. In this case FunPublications would step into the same role as TFcon, not FP.

[Pascal]

You don't see FunPublications going back and catering to the demand for their Botcon stuff.

I couldn't help but smile when I read comments from people who own Botcon stuff pretending they wouldn't care if those toys would be released later. Why? They well know it's NEVER going to happen. They just want the damn PC trailer mass-released because they missed out and don't want to pay the current goings price. They're ready to say whatever BS needed to make it happen. :)

[brr-icy]

I couldn't help but smile when I read comments from people who own Botcon stuff pretending they wouldn't care if those toys would be released later. Why? They well know it's NEVER going to happen. They just want the damn PC trailer mass-released because they missed out and don't want to pay the current goings price. They're ready to say whatever BS needed to make it happen. :)

quoted for truth, there is a lot of it going on, but seeing how fansP is doing the asian release, it's going to be just as much as scalper prices by the time it reaches here anyways lol

[FreedomGundam]

Hasbro still makes the toys though, they own the molds. In this case FunPublications would step into the same role as TFcon, not FP.
I may be wrong on this (never really did look into Botcon legalities much), but I was under the impression that FunPublications owned the molds to their exclusive parts. Hasbro makes them, but it's FunPublications that actually owns them (though Hasbro might be the ones hanging onto them or whatnot).