Star Wars Discussion (The Last Jedi Spoilers Within!)

[Masta_Skidz]

Knights of Ren are what I am most interested in. Did Kylo Kill them all as well as the new jedi ? if not where are they ? why do they not travel with Kylo ? Do the Knights have force powers ? Are the Knights also fallen Jedi from Lukes new camp? There are a bunch more I have but that is where I will leave that.

There is a book that I am reading called before the awakening that tells the stories of Poe, Finn and Rey. I have read most of Finn's Chapters and he apparently has seen combat on multiple occasions just not on the scale of Jakku. It seems that Finn was the top of the top Stormtrooper and always questioned his programming shall we call it. The main directive of a ST is to do the order above all and numerous times he kind of defies that directive mentality when his squad mates are in trouble.
I would like to think that the ST that Finn holds in his arms as he dies was one of those ST that he cared for and saved many times and it made him finally snap from the brainwashing and realize that they are fighting a war that they had no choice in what side they were on. That they are just sent out and ordered to slaughter whoever the F/O says just because they say did not sit well with him and he thought that they should have a choice that is what made him different.
The fact that the conditioning and training never really took to Finn makes me think that he is stronger with the force as his mind is not as weak as the others, he was also able to hide his thoughts and feelings from superiors and the multiple physical and mental tests that they had to endure daily in training has to say something.As for him getting rocked by Kylo I know eye rolls ...... Finn does land a good blow on the supposed to be chosen one Kylo Ren and hold him off pretty good in a lightsaber duel that he clearly knew he was outmatched and outskilled in.

[Darth Cylon]

https://twitter.com/VeryLonelyLuke

[Robimus]

Originally Posted by Darth Cylon

The Emperor was never named in the movie. The name Palpatine, "Darth" as well as "Sith" came from EU novel/comic. It would be silly if every Jedi is names "Obi-wan" something.

None of those came from the novels and comics. Darth Vader was always the Dark Lord of the Sith in Lucas's scripts. I assume Palpatine was there as well, but am not 100% certain of its origins.

Now "Darth" itself didn't become a title until the Prequels rolled around as far as I know, which again was Lucas - not the EU.

Also, on Sheev, yes Lucas came up with that name - and then decided to never use it. It was once Lucas sold the company that Disney/LFL went through his old scripts and background work for the OT and suggested that Luceno use it in Tarkin.

Considering that Luceno also wrote Darth Plagueis, which sort of ambiguously suggested that Palpatine may be named after his father Cosigna, I suspect he was just following orders when it came to including "Sheev" in his new novel.

So yeah, Lucas really isn't top blame for the Sheev thing.

Originally Posted by Sun Swipe Prime

A great effects movie can be entertaining, but once it's over with, if there's no story to tug on the heartstrings, for me, there's little reason to go back.

I've gotten all the movie has to offer in one sitting, but a movie with real emotions and characters that you love, that's a movie that just keeps giving.

If a film maker can hit all the right notes with the emotional content that is great, but they still should have to make a coherent film.

In Episode 7 did people care about Han Solo because of Episode 7? Or do they care about him because of the Original Trilogy?

The Prequel Trilogy didn't have as much of that for sure - but it didn't have nostalgic heart strings to pull on either.

I honestly didn't find myself caring for Rey, Finn and Poe in Episode 7 anymore than I cared for Obi-Wan, Anakin & Padme in the Prequels. In fact, for me, I feel like I care about them even less on most levels - but then I have a lot of baggage with this franchise.

To me the most emotional scene in the Prequels was Yoda feeling the deaths of the Jedi Order through the Force - I thought it was extremely touching and well done.(And yes, I know Lucas seems to work better with Technology that actors, so the irony of that isn't lost on me )

Like I say, I do feel Abrams did well with the Han/Kylo Ren emo stuff - but it still didn't have nearly the emotional impact on me that other scenes in a variety of other Star Wars films had.

I actually think they even dropped the ball on Han's death to an extent - no funeral, no moment between Leia & Chewie after his death(Chewie actually walks by Leia so she can embrace Rey allowing for those two to have a heartfelt moment to remember Han).

And of course Han dying is Luke's fault, which is sort of a kick in the teeth to Luke fans But that is another topic altogether.

[Sun Swipe Prime]

Originally Posted by Robimus

If a film maker can hit all the right notes with the emotional content that is great, but they still should have to make a coherent film.

I'm not sure I'm understanding you here. Are you saying that TFA wasn't coherent or are you just making a general statement?

Originally Posted by Robimus

In Episode 7 did people care about Han Solo because of Episode 7? Or do they care about him because of the Original Trilogy?

The Prequel Trilogy didn't have as much of that for sure - but it didn't have nostalgic heart strings to pull on either.

I'd disagree that the prequels didn't have nostalgic heart strings to pull on. I mean one of the first posters to come out for the prequels had this image on it.



As for Han, I'd say even if people didn't watch the original trilogy, people would care for him because he was the grouchy smuggler who was kind to Rey and Fin. That's the way he's set up in TFA.

But I can't say for sure because I did see the originals. But the same question could apply to Obi Wan, Anikin, and every one of dozens of character from the original trilogy that showed up in the prequels.

In addition, I'd ask the question, how did characters that had built in likability from the original trilogy become disliked in the prequels?

Lucas designed the prequels to echo the original trilogy. He said "You see the echo of where it all is gonna go. It’s like poetry, sort of. They rhyme.”

Sure TFA did the same thing. The difference being, Abrams didn't bother trying to be coy about it.

Originally Posted by Robimus

I honestly didn't find myself caring for Rey, Finn and Poe in Episode 7 anymore than I cared for Obi-Wan, Anakin & Padme in the Prequels. In fact, for me, I feel like I care about them even less on most levels - but then I have a lot of baggage with this franchise.

No, I demand that you fall in line like a good Stormtrooper and fall in love with these characters. How dare you think for yourself.

Originally Posted by Robimus

Like I say, I do feel Abrams did well with the Han/Kylo Ren emo stuff - but it still didn't have nearly the emotional impact on me that other scenes in a variety of other Star Wars films had.

This was one of my niggles about the film. The set up for Han's death didn't feel fully developed. To me, it was missing just a little something to bring it home. As is, it felt adequate.

Originally Posted by Robimus

And of course Han dying is Luke's fault, which is sort of a kick in the teeth to Luke fans But that is another topic altogether.

I get the feeling if you spread that around a SW forum, it'd be like spreading gasoline.

[Robimus]

Originally Posted by Sun Swipe Prime

I'm not sure I'm understanding you here. Are you saying that TFA wasn't coherent or are you just making a general statement?

A little of both. Parts of TFA are very coherent, but the galactic scale conflict at the center of the film is very convoluted.

We have the New Republic supporting the Resistance(according to the crawl), but then all we hear about is how the Republic isn't doing this or that for them in the film. Then we have the Republic continuing to not support them once the Fist Order attacks as well.

Most people that I ask about what the relationship of the Resistance to the Republic have no clue - and those who do seem to be pulling info from the new Visual Dictionary. I shouldn't need to read a book to figure out the political climate in the film.

Then we have the First Order. Why did they attack the New Republic? To be evil, yes - but what is the end goal? They destroyed a bunch of Republic worlds(and apparently most of he Republic Fleet according to the Visual Dictionary) - and then they sit there waiting to get attacked?

They don't launch an invasion. They don't issue any demands - they just seem to have no long term goal that is conveyed onscreen that I recall.

It is very unclear based on the film if the First Order is an actual government, or just ISIS with a super weapon.

Maybe some of this stuff get answered long term, but a lot of these questions we should already know the answers to. A bit of dialog here, one or two extra scenes would have made this stuff all work.

I'd also disagree that the established characters for the OT were disliked in the Prequels. There are tons of people that love Ewan McGregor as Obi-Wan, lots of people who still love McDiarmid's portrayal of Palpatine. Yoda still get a lot of love as well and Anakin was far from the same character he was in the OT.

There really is no way to prove those characters are disliked by the masses in general. Just look at Rotten Tomatoes - 79% of Professional Reviewers gave Revenge of the Sith positive reviews - and each film has had a general rating of 60%-65% of the regular audience enjoying the films based on that rather prominent review site.

I suspect The Phantom Menace would have seen more good pro reviews as well if not for Jar Jar

They may not have liked them as much as they liked the OT or even this new film, but that is pretty far from dislike imo. You may have not liked them, just like I might not be too high on the new film - but we are just two voices in a vast ocean of internet opinions.

Originally Posted by Sun Swipe Prime

Lucas designed the prequels to echo the original trilogy. He said "You see the echo of where it all is gonna go. It’s like poetry, sort of. They rhyme.”

Sure TFA did the same thing. The difference being, Abrams didn't bother trying to be coy about it.

There is a huge difference at the core of the Prequels when compared to TFA. The Prequel setting is a story about a society trading freedom for security. There are some similar elements to the OT in the Prequels sure, but there is a lot of fresh material.

I'm honestly not even sure what the Sequel Trilogy is even about yet. A cold war with the First Order? The Rise of the First Order? The fall of the Republic? The galactic scale of the film is missing parts right now, a lot of them. The Phantom Menace, for all its faults, was a more well put together story onscreen than TFA is. We understood the state of the galaxy and we understood the motivations of characters in The Phantom Menace very quickly. It did have mystery to it - but all the stuff we should know launching a trilogy we did. TFA drops the ball on that fairly significantly in my opinion.

Like I say, I still think it was a fun enough film, it just doesn't seem to stand up well to detailed scrutiny that doesn't involve the Skywalker/Solo family.

[MULTIPLEX]

Originally Posted by Masta_Skidz

Knights of Ren are what I am most interested in. Did Kylo Kill them all as well as the new jedi ? if not where are they ? why do they not travel with Kylo ? Do the Knights have force powers ? Are the Knights also fallen Jedi from Lukes new camp? There are a bunch more I have but that is where I will leave that.

First off, that dude in Rey's vision that Kylo skewers from the back is not Zuvio. Having said that there are two theories that I have.

I'm wondering if the other knights are Luke's former students from his new Jedi Order that Kylo/Snoke recruited. And those slaughtered victims in the rainy scene are just some unfortunate locals. Wrong place, wrong time.

Another theory could be that the dude who got skewered from the back was trying to grab for a blade, possibly lightsaber/staff on his back??? One of the many Jedi students that's were slaughtered by Kylo and his angry 8.

My personal feeling is that rainy scene is yet to come to pass. A future vision. Luke could see the future, so could Anakin. Maybe Rey has that power. Which would lean me towards my first thought.

[Darth Cylon]

[MULTIPLEX]

Seriously, isn't that book great? My daughter got it for me for Christmas, I've been referencing it so much. Loved the explanation of the unstable lightsaber beam.

There's another book, albeit for kids, but it has some good info about Rey and her life on Jakku. It's called Rey's Survival Guide or something. Love the sketches in it.

[Masta_Skidz]

I was talking about the scene where Kylo was standing with his Knights they were all wearing similar robes and Helmets each were distinct in there own way and I would believe that would be rank. Seen here is this link http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Knigh...fRen%20TFA.png There also appears to be 7 and not 8
I do like how it does say that REN is a title much like the Darth is a title to the Sith

I have the visual Dictionary as well and I am read it cover to cover and all I have to say is that it does not say anything about the Knight's or much about the Fist Orders Rising from the Imperial of the Old it is vague in General Krux's pages and not to much on the other pages that minor mention them. There is absolutely nothing on Leader Snoke wich leads me to believe that this came out before the Movie as to not reveal to many secrets.

Can you please re size that massive pic or post link, it makes reading this page hard

I know it is not much but this Quote from Kylo does explain the F/O mission a little more

"It is the task of the First Order to remove the disorder from our own existence, so that civilization may be returned to the stability that promotes progress. A stability that existed under the Empire, was reduced to anarchy by the Rebellion, was inherited in turn by the so-called Republic, and will be restored by us. Future historians will look upon this as the time when a strong hand brought the rule of law back to civilization."
―Kylo Ren to Lieutenant Mitaka

Not sure how reliable the source material is on the site but it does give some explanation to a few things

Leader Snoke
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Snoke

First Order
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/First_Order

[Darth Cylon]

The image is a link so I guess it's the native size...sorry..I didn't realise it was that big...

Check out The Art of Star Wars: The Force Awakens too. A lot of cool conceptualizations that never made it to final production. Funny a lot of inspirations from EU materials. They even had Darth Talon from Legacy...