Are female Transformers really that hated? (IDW Spoilers)

[Wh33ls]

Originally Posted by OneShallFall

<----thinks they should be in the kitchen making him some Energon-O's.

I just saw all four takes. Funny as hell!

[Wayward]

Smog - Okay, I think we more or less agree on most of it, except you're on the side of "Why?" whereas I'm on the side of "Why not?"

Though I still dislike the "But it's boring and lazy!" argument, and instead of properly explaning, I got sarcastic and I shouldn't have. What I mean is, they've got wars and art and friends and rivals and accountants and sports and board games and taverns and basically everything humans already have and more ... but gender ( perceived or otherwise ) is the dealbreaker? Is sexual dimorphism the only way we define ourselves as humans?

[Sureshot22]

wow read it all and man my head and eyes hurt. lol

scrapper6/ I applaud you.

my thoughts exactly.
the show was made for young boys. female chars were tossed in there for the lil sisters and cousins. agree with you 100%.
also as you said. back then (as young boys) we didnt need or would want all the (REALISM) we didn't care. it was entertaining.

this debate is all fine and dandy and all. and sure if the show was just being made and made for adults all this would have a point. but it doesn't because its not.

just remember watching the show as a kid and loving it.

I know when i bought all the dvd sets i sat there everyday after work and watched a few of the episodes until i had watched them all. and there were times and episodes that i could actually remember exactly where i was and what i was doing etc. when i watched that exact episode as a child.

I love the show for that reason. and it was my fav show and toy as a child.

back then i wouldn't have liked it if it was all (REAL)

*throws in 2 cents*

[SMOG]

Originally Posted by Wh33ls

Reminds me of that whole montage we see in the CGI film Robots, where the parents build the new baby, and beyond, by getting upgrades to "grow up" as it were to maturity. At first I found it funny because is was so out of the box of what us humans perceive of "normal" procreation. But I now see it as an ingenious example of story telling about how do robots procreate.

Exactly! And therein lies my point.

I also have a personal love of the way HyoRyu and EnRyu were introduced in GaoGaiGar, in terms of both brevity, clevernes and giving you an emotional stake in their characters. It deals more with their role as human-created AI, so it's not completely relevant, but it's still an example of a good twist on the norm.

Originally Posted by Sun Swipe Prime

The thing about a story totally about genderless machine life forms that have no resemblance to humans or their culture is that an audience will have a hard time relating to those types of characters. The audences needs some reference point in order to connect with characters, machine or human.

Yes and no... there are many ways that the characters and their tribulations can make for interesting stories for the characters without making them biologically similar to humans, especially in the sense of a binary gender arrangement. I'm not suggesting that we stop relating to Transformers as "male", since that's always what we've done... only that it can be tempered with the knowledge that they are not really male, nor do they relate to human relationships on that same level or in the same way.

To imply that removing the blatant and problematic male/female divide from Transformers, or treating it as more of an abstraction, would suddenly make people stop relating to the fiction is absolutely ridiculous!

(well, except for the naughty fanfic crowd )

Transformers cemented itself with 2 seasons with barely a hint of gender discourse, and frankly, Arcee's presence in Season 3 only muddied the waters.

Transformers is not Sweet Valley High... it's appeal does not rest (and never has) on male-female relationship dynamics.

That's why most stories with alien life forms in them have human characters. That's why we have Shia Labouf and Megan Fox.

If that's the level of relationship drama required to make Transformers palatable to the wide market, I think that's pretty sad. Horny teen + hot chick = awkward comedy is all it takes, eh?

We see the story unfold from the human point of view. We don't really get in to the head space of the machines or what it means to be a transformer. Story tellers give transformers human traits because it helps us connect with them and like them. If that happens, well, they sell more toys.

Despite the fact that there's a large demographic in the fandom who is adamantly anti-human, and would prefer that all TF stories take place in some outer space scenario, where their large size and alt modes are irrelevant, I happen to agree with you... I think a huge part of the appeal of Transformers is contrasting them with our familiar human world, and the surreal juxtaposition of a familiar real-world object like a car somehow rearranging itself into a giant robot.

But in making this point, you're kind of arguing my side. Transformers don't need to be humans... they just need to interact with them to some degree. That's the best way to convey the ways that they are both similar and alien to us. "Getting into the headspace of machines", as you put it, is a really cool part of the whole thing. If Transformer culture and Earth culture are almost identical in terms of their social conventions and biological needs, then there's not much contrast, and the whole thing loses an element of its appeal.

How do you get the audience to connect emotionally with alien characters that can't be understood, except superficially? You can't have completely alien characters if you want the audience to connect with them in any way.

Uh, I don't know why that's so hard to figure out. The fascination lies in the way that TFs seem similar, but do function on a different level. It doesnt' mean that they don't have emotions to relate to, only that it requires a bit of exploration to understand the ways that they differ from us. Which is, again, the point of science fiction.

When a story invovles robots that have emotions and resemble humans, I think it opens up the door to having some form of gender. Why should there be an arbitrary exclusion of this when transformers are so obviously like us in so many other ways?

Because the more you make them like big metal humans, the less interesting and unique they become.

Generally speakin, I think sci-fi stories are explorations of ourselves rather than what it's like to an alien life form. They're allegories for us, humans and our society.

You're missing the point. Sci-fi stories explore alternate or abstract possibilities that expand our minds and give us a new perspective on ourselves.

A relationship drama on a spaceship is not a sci-fi story. Not really.

A relationship drama in a universe where certain fundamental principals are altered, so that relationships are handled differently, and we are forced to reconsider those things we take for grantedin our "real" universe... that's science fiction.

Giving the old imagination a whirl, I think, if living machines really existed, they'd be a hive mind, with out emotions because what use are emotions to a machine that comes off the assembly line? What advantages would there be to having emotions like anger, fear, even love. With out emotions there'd be no war between themselves, just total harmony within their society and how interesting is that?

But that's only one possibility. There's no question that TFs function as individuals and have emotions. They have something, a learning ability, a spark, an x-factor, that allows them to build on their programming, rather than be limited by it. But at the same time, they are a race with a radically different way of coming into this world, without childhood, without the same type of family attachments, without the same conception of "death". Sounds like a fertile ground for the imagination to me.

But I don't see why people need boy-bots and girl-bots in order to relate to something. That's kind of pathetic, really. Especially when the girl-bots have to have boobs and lipstick.

Originally Posted by Scrapper6

I can't believe how much you guys, zmog and the rest, debate this issue. In all seriousness Transformers began life as a 1980's Cartoon and Comic Book series. Boys age 5+ don't want to read mind blowing stories about non-gendered alien lifeforms called It fighting a civil war.

I believe I already raised that point much earlier in the discussion. We know WHY, as an 80's toy property and kids cartoon, Transformers has such a simplistic world view... however, as adult fans, without questioning too deeply WHY we're still fans of such a superficial fiction, we crave a more complex exploration of some of the science and ideas in Transformers.So why not?

This is nothing new... people like Simon Furman built his damn career on doing that. What, you think KIDS are buying those IDW comics? I mean, seriously dude.

Trying to adopt a more serious take on Transformers fiction now that your grown up and all adult like defeats the purpose of just being nostalgic and remembering what you liked about these toys/cartoons/comics back in the heyday of childhood.

See, this presupposes that all kids were mindless drones who never applied critical thought to their entertainment... which is kind of sad, because that's also the attitude of many grown-ups towards our media. And we wonder why our culture is just getting dumber and dumber... bring on the Michael Bay blockbusters and reality TV!

Maybe I was just the right age, but as a kid I was very critical of the construction of fictions. I liked the way GIJOE comics were written somewhat intelligently even if the cartoon was as dumb as a rock. I noticed when the toy property comics took that shift from sci-fi stories that made some attempt to be thoughtful, into facile, lowest denominator territory. (anybody remember Starriors?)

Often I would compare the TF cartoon, comics and Tech Specs, and decide whether something "worked" or whether it was just stupid and should be discarded. I was always building my own personal "canon" and assessing how things like that should work. That's what made it FUN.

I dunno. Maybe some kids are just dumb.

It's great and all that we can debate this, but in the end run it makes little sense and would be IMHO a complete waste of time. We won't change anybody else's oppions to our way of thinking, we won't change Hasbro's or the creative teams cardboard esque cookie cutter molds for new Cartoon and Movie series. And we certainly won't magically change the past.

When you look at it this way, there isn't a single thing on any Transformers website that ISN'T a "waste of time"... unless it's a price guide for tracking the value of your collection... maybe. But I think you're really missing the point here... isn't the very act of discussion the goal? Isn't the exchange of ideas, even about imaginary things, worth anything anymore?

And if not, what are you doing here? Shouldn't you be out playing sports or making millions of dollars on the stock market or watching reality TV or something "worthwhile" like that?

Originally Posted by Bruticus82

I just followed the whole cartoon "the Quintessons created them" idea. As we can see from Quintessa, the Quintessons seem obsessed with the idea of mechanically replicating organic life. Not sure why.

Oh, absolutely... if you subscribe to that particular origin (and of course, nothing in Transformers is that universally accepted, so there are many origins to choose from), there is a certain reasoning to why TFs are mechanical, look humanoid, and have female designs as well (though it doesn't really explain why the male and female designs would feel the need to pair up and behave as gendered organics would). There are a lot of fans who never liked/accepted the cartoon Quint origin, so there's still a lot of ink spilled over those ideas... but in a way it does tie up many of the logical gaps in the TF cosmology.

Originally Posted by Wayward

Smog - Okay, I think we more or less agree on most of it, except you're on the side of "Why?" whereas I'm on the side of "Why not?"

Yeah, probably.

Though I still like my side better.

What I mean is, they've got wars and art and friends and rivals and accountants and sports and board games and taverns and basically everything humans already have and more ... but gender ( perceived or otherwise ) is the dealbreaker? Is sexual dimorphism the only way we define ourselves as humans?

Well, apparently it is, since that seems to be the element that many people INSIST must be incorporated into Transformers so that they can "relate" to it.

But no... I'll clarify that the list you supply above, of "similarities" between Earth and Cybertronian culture... I really HATE that shit!

The way that TF "culture" is so often depicted as following an easily analogous path already familiar to modern Western Earthlings, despite the fact that following their strange and mechanical nature, things should be MUCH different... that bugs me a lot and to me represents an EXTREMELY lazy approach to science-fiction world-building.

For these reasons, I rolled my eyes a lot when reading MEGATRON:ORIGIN or SPOTLIGHT:BLURR... because despite the wonderful possibilities for creating a new and inherently credible alien society and culture for Cybertron, instead we get something rather... familiar and banal.

If you want to include parallels with Earth culture, mix it up a bit. Look at other cultures, other time periods... twist them around till they're barely recognizable. Look at our technological culture, and think "if machines were alive, how might they live... how would they reproduce themselves... how would they evolve, think, love, or what social divisions and values would they have, and why?"

...and then if you come up with something EXACTLY like how WE live, slap yourself.

zmog

[Scrapper6]

Originally Posted by SMOG

I believe I already raised that point much earlier in the discussion. We know WHY, as an 80's toy property and kids cartoon, Transformers has such a simplistic world view... however, as adult fans, without questioning too deeply WHY we're still fans of such a superficial fiction, we crave a more complex exploration of some of the science and ideas in Transformers.So why not?

Touche, however I still prefer to keep my hobbies simple. Not saying I'm dumb, just that overanalyzing things to the nth degree and building up complex cultural equations or socilogical ideas seems to be a little too much. I'm in this for the fun of collecting and fiddling with my toys, hell I still find myself playing with them and that's what they're for really.

Originally Posted by SMOG

This is nothing new... people like Simon Furman built his damn career on doing that. What, you think KIDS are buying those IDW comics? I mean, seriously dude.

Maybe not, maybe the fans really are the only ones into the comics, that still doesn't mean we need the big complex origin tales or science fiction akin to Battlestar Galactica or whatever it was they were comparing Furman's stuff to. Seriously why do you think All Hail Megatron took the place of Furman's -Ation books? Because the fans were growing tired of seeing the massive sci-fi epic. Or at least that's the excuse they made up at IDW. Personally I enjoyed the comics, but I don't know why you'd want them to take what Furman was doing and go even further down the road to extremism. Extremism for it's own sake doesn't make good stories.

Originally Posted by SMOG

See, this presupposes that all kids were mindless drones who never applied critical thought to their entertainment... which is kind of sad, because that's also the attitude of many grown-ups towards our media. And we wonder why our culture is just getting dumber and dumber... bring on the Michael Bay blockbusters and reality TV!

I find this train of thought very depressing. Kids are not dumb, our society is not dumb, it is the methods in which we have become accustomed to that makes us appear dumb. Were we as a society to finally stop being so damnright hung up on these technological marvels and shit and the next latest thing it is entirely possible we could regain some of our true personalities and styles back. (If I'm saying it right.)

Originally Posted by SMOG

Maybe I was just the right age, but as a kid I was very critical of the construction of fictions. I liked the way GIJOE comics were written somewhat intelligently even if the cartoon was as dumb as a rock. I noticed when the toy property comics took that shift from sci-fi stories that made some attempt to be thoughtful, into facile, lowest denominator territory. (anybody remember Starriors?)

Often I would compare the TF cartoon, comics and Tech Specs, and decide whether something "worked" or whether it was just stupid and should be discarded. I was always building my own personal "canon" and assessing how things like that should work. That's what made it FUN.

I dunno. Maybe some kids are just dumb.

I don't think so, I was never dumb, I just wasn't as obsessed about the realism behind fictions. How things worked, how they could feasibly operate in our world. I prefer fantasy worlds they offer a much greater range for creative ideas. I have always loved to create, I still write quite a lot actually of fanfiction and I don't strive for realism in my works. If I try to overindulge the techie side of things people wouldn't like reading my stuff. They don't want to be TOLD how it works, they prefer to be SHOWN how it works. Or at least that's what some have said to me when critiqueing my work.

Originally Posted by SMOG

When you look at it this way, there isn't a single thing on any Transformers website that ISN'T a "waste of time"... unless it's a price guide for tracking the value of your collection... maybe. But I think you're really missing the point here... isn't the very act of discussion the goal? Isn't the exchange of ideas, even about imaginary things, worth anything anymore?

The act of discussion is indeed the goal, but some of your posts do tend to get a little... how to put it politely? I know, the lights are on, but there's nobody home. Reading them makes my mind start to shut off because it feels like you're trying too hard to overanalyze and possibly preach your viewpoint. Although that could just be my interpretation of it, or the fact that I read the thread late at night and early in the morning when the mind isn't quite up and at'em as it were.

Originally Posted by SMOG

And if not, what are you doing here? Shouldn't you be out playing sports or making millions of dollars on the stock market or watching reality TV or something "worthwhile" like that?

I will never nor will I even think about watching 'reality TV' no matter how bored I become with television. I don't know why the hell the viewers have encouraged such a base degradation of humanity, it sickens me. I can't understand why the hell watching someone pouring their heart and soul into a performance to try and make it big in the music industry, or seeing some moron who can't keep his social life to himself/herself acting the 'player' and then picking a bride/groom is such an enjoyable thing to watch?
We're a social species, we thrive on that kind of thing, if I wanted to watch the lives of others I'd become one of those spoof guys who stare out windows with binoculars all day and creepily watch people in their daily lives. This Reality TV trend is utter tripe to borrow a Britishism and confounds me to no end.

As for sports, I was never an active person and making millions on the stock exchange would be nice, but it isn't the type of job I'd like or feel happy/comfortable in. (Note, this is not me being a jerk or anything, this is me taking your response literally because I tend to do it, so here's my honest/literal response.)

[SMOG]

Originally Posted by Scrapper6

Touche, however I still prefer to keep my hobbies simple. Not saying I'm dumb, just that overanalyzing things to the nth degree and building up complex cultural equations or socilogical ideas seems to be a little too much.

And why would you think that wasn't fun? I find it depressing that so many people treat "deep thoughts" like they're difficult or painful.

Not implying that you're dumb, sorry if it came off that way... I just take issue with people implying that "simple pleasures" are somehow more noble than "overthinking" things. "Overthinking" doesn't require any more brain power... it doesn't hurt... it just makes things more interesting.

I'm in this for the fun of collecting and fiddling with my toys, hell I still find myself playing with them and that's what they're for really.

Me too.

Seriously why do you think All Hail Megatron took the place of Furman's -Ation books? Because the fans were growing tired of seeing the massive sci-fi epic.

I agree in fact. But that was because Furman was so obsessed with grandiose and incoherent cosmic events, he forgot about the smaller nuts and bolts details and character development.

Meanwhile, if you've been following AHM, you know that it's hardly a "simple pleasure" series. McCarthy's spent a lot of time filling in various blanks and explaining why certain things are the way they are, etc... in terms of "science fiction", I fail to see a contradiction between Furman and AHM, though AHM has much better character play.

Personally I enjoyed the comics, but I don't know why you'd want them to take what Furman was doing and go even further down the road to extremism. Extremism for it's own sake doesn't make good stories.

I don't think I was advocating that. Thinking fembots are stupid is not extremism.

I find this train of thought very depressing. Kids are not dumb, our society is not dumb, it is the methods in which we have become accustomed to that makes us appear dumb.

On the contrary... those methods MAKE us dumb. As soon as people start considering using their brain to be a chore, we've all become dumber, as individuals and as a culture.

I run a video store, so I see how that is reflected ni the way we go about seeking entertainment especially, and it's very sad.

But we digress...

I prefer fantasy worlds they offer a much greater range for creative ideas. I have always loved to create, I still write quite a lot actually of fanfiction and I don't strive for realism in my works. If I try to overindulge the techie side of things people wouldn't like reading my stuff.

I think it all depends on the context you create. Actually, I'm much more of a fantasy nerd than a sci-fi geek myself. All I ask is for it to be "smart". Fantasy has it's own set of rules as well, and a poorly constructed fantasy setting is just as problematic as a poorly constructed sci-fi one. The only difference is that in fantasy, when you run out of answers, you can just say "A wizard did it." and be done.

They don't want to be TOLD how it works, they prefer to be SHOWN how it works. Or at least that's what some have said to me when critiqueing my work.

That's more a stylistic element of the writing. But a good comparison would be the way many sci-fi anime are structured compared to western sci-fi settings.

In anime, the standard approach is to throw you into an invented world with absolutely no special information... you often have no idea why the world is the way it is, or exactly how things work... but gradually, as you follow the characters through the storyline, you start to pick up the pieces and figure things out for yourself, rather than having some all-knowing narrator lay it all out for you at the beginning.

I like that style because it keeps you hungry. You start with questions, and as you piece things together for those "Aha, I get it now!" realizations, you feel like you've discovered it for yourself, rather than had it explained to you.

The act of discussion is indeed the goal, but some of your posts do tend to get a little... how to put it politely? I know, the lights are on, but there's nobody home. Reading them makes my mind start to shut off because it feels like you're trying too hard to overanalyze and possibly preach your viewpoint.

Well naturally, I'm preaching my viewpoint. Now, how would you put it impolitely?

Though actually, I tend to play the devil's advocate more than anything, sometimes pursuing opposing points of view as well as my own... so I can see how that might confuse people sometimes.

I will never nor will I even think about watching 'reality TV' no matter how bored I become with television. I don't know why the hell the viewers have encouraged such a base degradation of humanity, it sickens me.

Yay. I didn't mean to say you DID watch reality TV... just a general observation that some people would frown on the "pointlessness" of debating the scientific principals of cartoons, but think nothing of rotting their brain on whatever random junk TV is playing, or cruising YouTube for AMV's or whatever.

(Note, this is not me being a jerk or anything, this is me taking your response literally because I tend to do it, so here's my honest/literal response.)

Haha! Fair enough!

zmog

[Robimus]

Scrapper 6 posted:
if I wanted to watch the lives of others I'd become one of those spoof guys who stare out windows with binoculars all day and creepily watch people in their daily lives.

Thats what I do when I'm not looking at the internetz

[Wh33ls]

Originally Posted by SMOG

That's more a stylistic element of the writing. But a good comparison would be the way many sci-fi anime are structured compared to western sci-fi settings.

In anime, the standard approach is to throw you into an invented world with absolutely no special information... you often have no idea why the world is the way it is, or exactly how things work... but gradually, as you follow the characters through the storyline, you start to pick up the pieces and figure things out for yourself, rather than having some all-knowing narrator lay it all out for you at the beginning.

I like that style because it keeps you hungry. You start with questions, and as you piece things together for those "Aha, I get it now!" realizations, you feel like you've discovered it for yourself, rather than had it explained to you.

You know, that's my favourite type of setting. And alot of anime series do this sort of thing. I find it so engaging that I have to see more just to try to understand. Eventually the pieces start to come together. But what I'd love to do after watching the complete series is to go back to the beginning and rewatch it all, now armed with new knowledge and go ahhh.

Now the really good ones, ie very deep and intricate/twisting story lines, will have you discovering even more, prompting me to go back and rewatch it again and again. And each time, pick up something in the background or a new character nuance. Awesome stuff!

To bad there aren't as many, or in my case, I haven't really found any western TV programs that use this sort of story telling. Which is probably why I don't watch a whole lot of TV to begin with, cause most of it (IMHO) is garbage, and I buy alot of anime series on DVD and watch those instead.

I apologize for thread hijacking. We really need to open another thread to discuss this further and to share and compare shows that have these or a lack there of.

[SMOG]

I suppose Lost and Battlestar Galactica are sort of like that, though not to the same degree. Typically, North American audiences need to know what the context is from the outset, while in anime, part of the appeal seems to be leaving things ambiguous... sometimes even TOO ambiguous... I wonder occasionally if it's too much to ask for an anime series to end with a clear outcome, with most of the loose ends tied up?

Meh. Just finished Wolf's Rain tonight. Great series, but the ending really leaves you out to sea... dammit.

zmog

[Wayward]

Though I still like my side better.

My side has a hot tub.

Anyway, I've hit the point of "I understand your words and I will continue to disagree with you." Anything more and we're just going in circles.