Are female Transformers really that hated? (IDW Spoilers)

[Nightscrabbler]

Originally Posted by SMOG

For me, part of what makes them interesting is the ways that, contrary to appearances, they are NOT like humans. Why take something with as much speculative potential as mechanical life forms, and then make them and their biology and culture purely analogous to humans? How much imagination does that require?

Saying that there are boy and girl TFs just like there are boy and girl Humans, and that their culture is just like ours, except with robots, is probably the most boring thing you could possibly do with the TF fiction.

IMHO.

zmog

Completely agree!

[Wayward]

I am not sure if what you think I said is what I think I said. The gender boxes and traits stuffed therein come entirely from the human audience. When I say masculine and feminine, I mean entirely from the human audience's perspective of such. I'm saying, that among themselves, Cybertronians don't make any distinction. I'm saying, on Cybertron, a Transformer looks at Ironhide and says 'Transformer' and looks at Arcee and says 'Transformer'. I'm saying, on Earth, a human looks at Ironhide and says 'male' and looks at Arcee and says 'female'. It's just how humans are wired.

Transformers have the full range of feelings and traits and reactions - heck, possibly more we don't have names for. Humans perceive the gestalt of some of these as 'male' or as 'female'. I am unable to understand why this is a bad thing.

Going with your cat example - every cat I've ever owned was male. As such, I automatically refer to all cats as male unless told otherwise. The gender tag has zero bearing on the actual sex of the cat. The cats don't care. They know what they are.

I think the fan preferences for gendering Transformers is largely driven by a fascination with robot sexuality.

For many, it is. In my case, I find perceptions of sex and gender - whether in real life, in fiction, and in how the audience reacts to the fiction - interesting, so when this topic comes up, I get sucked in.

Saying that there are boy and girl TFs just like there are boy and girl Humans, and that their culture is just like ours, except with robots, is probably the most boring thing you could possibly do with the TF fiction.

Okay, so having sex/gender negates every other aspect of their culture? Why doesn't Earth have a monolithic culture, then? We've got boys and girls in Canada just like everywhere else on Earth, after all.

[Sun Swipe Prime]

Originally Posted by SMOG

BUT... suppose you want to dig a little deeper? Humanoid alien types are a common convention in science fiction, so that's nothing new... however, in this case, despite the fact that Transformers "look" like us superficially, they are in fact fundamentally different, due largely to their mechanical nature (including their shapeshifting abilities, longevity, and wide array of alien traits).

For me, part of what makes them interesting is the ways that, contrary to appearances, they are NOT like humans. Why take something with as much speculative potential as mechanical life forms, and then make them and their biology and culture purely analogous to humans? How much imagination does that require?

Saying that there are boy and girl TFs just like there are boy and girl Humans, and that their culture is just like ours, except with robots, is probably the most boring thing you could possibly do with the TF fiction.

IMHO.

zmog

Anything can be a furtile ground for the imagination, if one digs deep enough. There are many themes that can be explored by having Male/Female genders with machines. Given that they have emotions, can they and humans fall in love? Theres an oportunity to explore the meanings and origins of love beyond the biological. One can explore many ideas that deal with immortality and relationships. Can love really last forever? Saying that they're boring because they reflect us is like saying that humanity is boring.

Now if your looking for a pseudo scientific reason for there to be female and male transformers, don't look further than Darwin's theory of natural selction. The reason for sex is not 100% reproduction because many animals/plants can reproduce asexually. The reason for male-female sexes is genetic diversity. Half of our chromisomes come from dad and the other half come from Mom. That's why we get things like mom's eyes and dad's stubby legs. Genetic diversity maximizes species survival in an ever changing environment. Those traits that are most favorable to survival in a particular environment make it easier for progeny to survive and reproduce.

Give that machines have finite memory, one can say that a male-female bonding for machines would take elements of code/skills frome each parent and create new hybrid code for the new protoform. This code would contain features from each parent, and like our chromosomes, would create some sort of code diversity so that a every transformer has a unique set of skills.

How's that for a load of BS

[SMOG]

Originally Posted by Wayward

I am not sure if what you think I said is what I think I said. The gender boxes and traits stuffed therein come entirely from the human audience. When I say masculine and feminine, I mean entirely from the human audience's perspective of such. I'm saying, that among themselves, Cybertronians don't make any distinction. I'm saying, on Cybertron, a Transformer looks at Ironhide and says 'Transformer' and looks at Arcee and says 'Transformer'. I'm saying, on Earth, a human looks at Ironhide and says 'male' and looks at Arcee and says 'female'. It's just how humans are wired.

First off, I like the way in the midst of this conversation, we're also using machine allegories in reference to human biology.

I agree with you on that front... except the way these characters are designed and portrayed, and how they respond to each other is also written with too much of that "human bias".

Transformers have the full range of feelings and traits and reactions - heck, possibly more we don't have names for. Humans perceive the gestalt of some of these as 'male' or as 'female'. I am unable to understand why this is a bad thing.

Because the "gestalt" represented by those traits is a false construction based on our highly subjective criteria for "male" and "female", therefore applying it even to ourselves is problematic, let alone to non-gendered alien beings.

The fact that Transformers would superficially appear to be a "masculine" culture, at least to the extent that their non-gendered default resembles the earth masculine construct, would have to be a given. As a culture long at war, made up predominantly of worker, scientist and warrior roles, and without a traditional caregiver role, coming to Earth and examining it's culture it would make sense that they would identify themselves along masculine archetypes. However, that says more about us, and our enduring gender biases, than it does about them.

Now, I think an interesting scenario would be if, after exposure to human (or other organic) culture, certain Transformers are fascinated by the notion of "gender" and decide that they self-identify as "male" or "female"... but that's still miles away from Fembots. If Hoist abruptly decided that he identified himself (indeed, itself) as female, it would be a topic for derision, while Arcee has curvy legs, a pink chassis, and a soft voice, so we have no problem labelling her female. Neither is more correct... and in fact Hoist is much closer to a non-gendered being, as "it" rather pointedly looks neither "masculine" or "feminine" in the ways that compromise a character like Arcee.

Going with your cat example - every cat I've ever owned was male. As such, I automatically refer to all cats as male unless told otherwise. The gender tag has zero bearing on the actual sex of the cat. The cats don't care. They know what they are.

Exactly. And I know people who also refer to cats as female by default too... for no particular reason. In this case we refer to Cybertronians as "male" as a simple shortcut, despite the fact that they have no gender/sex. However, the existence of Fembots subverts that entirely, as they seem very much to represent a different species with blatant codified female traits and behaviour, and are also treated that way in many of the fictions, and among the fandom.

For many, it is. In my case, I find perceptions of sex and gender - whether in real life, in fiction, and in how the audience reacts to the fiction - interesting, so when this topic comes up, I get sucked in.

To be fair, that's pretty normal. Most human entertainment is sex, violence, or a combination of the two. However, in some cases, it seems like applying those preferences where they don't really belong can disturb the integrity of the piece.

For example, I have an odd little quirk, in that I automatically give extra props to any movie that doesn't have a female character in it... not because I don't like women, or romance or sex appeal. It's just because so often the ONLY reason a female character is inserted into a storyline is to have a token romantic/sexy touch that otherwise has NO bearing on the story being told. I'd rather have NO woman at all, than have a meaningless side character that has nothing to really contribute to the story than an underwear scene.

When you (rarely) see one of these films, it means that the creators didn't sell out. They knew that their story wasn't about a hot sex scene or a love interest, and so they kept things focused. I think there's a certain amount of integrity there...

Sometimes it's because it's really a "boy's club" story, like you get in Chang Cheh movies. It's all testosterone, brotherhood, male bonding and vengeance, and that's fine. A girlfriend or femme fatale role would just distract from the main plot.

On the other hand, you have a great film like ALIENS, where the female characters are fully integrated into the plot, despite the fact that there is NO romantic subplot whatsoever. It's a remakable film in that it incorporates strong feminine themes and roles with absolutely no tokenism or love-story shenanigans.

But I digress...

Okay, so having sex/gender negates every other aspect of their culture? Why doesn't Earth have a monolithic culture, then? We've got boys and girls in Canada just like everywhere else on Earth, after all.

Er... what?

What I mean is that we already know that TF's resemble humans in certain physical respects. They're humanoid, they have faces (usually), and they communicate through speech, etc... but that's really where it should end. They operate on a fundamentally different level than humans do, in respect to their physiology, perception of time, of death, philosophy of life, etc... to instead reduce the potential exploration of Cybertronian culture to an easy corrolary of North American human lifestyle, is about the laziest possible thing you could do in the conceptualization of an alien species. Then notion of mechanical beings without gender, who reproduce asexually... that's a HUGE starting point.

To dumb down the fiction (and let's remember that building an interesting and innovative setting/paradigm is the main part of science-fiction as a genre), just because Fangirl had her first crush on Optimus Prime and his sexy voice, or because Fanboy used to have prepubescent fantasies about hot fembots (and continues to), is kind of unfortunate.

There are a gazillion other geek franchises with ample room for male-female dynamics within their setting. I feel like the appeal of Transformers should be elsewhere, in line with a more Platonic ideal... though maybe it's still asking too much of a property that remains, at it's core, goofy kid stuff.

sigh...

zmog

[SMOG]

Originally Posted by Sun Swipe Prime

Anything can be a furtile ground for the imagination, if one digs deep enough. There are many themes that can be explored by having Male/Female genders with machines.

Obviously, you can still tell good stories, even in a poorly constructed setting. However, being that science-fiction as a genre usually trades on constructing interesting alternative worlds and reimagining them through the abstract... this is missing the point. Sci-fi is as much about the setting as it is about the characters.

As machines, can TF's fall in love, with their own kind or with others? Sure... but if we break down their biology in such a way that it's essentially big metal boys and girls, then that doesn't really make it interesting or different from any other sci-fi adventure love story scenario, does it? You could just watch Macross.

Personally, I think it makes it much more intellectually stimulating if we're forced to reinterpret our ideas of what love and gender is by applying them to beings for whom those notions would seem to be alien.... rather than simply sticking boobs and lipstick on it and calling it a girl, as it were.

Given that they have emotions, can they and humans fall in love? Theres an oportunity to explore the meanings and origins of love beyond the biological. One can explore many ideas that deal with immortality and relationships. Can love really last forever? Saying that they're boring because they reflect us is like saying that humanity is boring.

Exactly. If there's potential to explore more imaginative and different territory, particularly in terms of what it means to be a genderless machine life form, why the hell would you want them to act and reproduce more or less just like us?

It's not that I don't like sex and romance... I just don't need it in my Transformers. It's not a good fit. There are other themes in Transformers that are better explored outside that conventional male/female box.

Now if your looking for a pseudo scientific reason for there to be female and male transformers, don't look further than Darwin's theory of natural selction. The reason for sex is not 100% reproduction because many animals/plants can reproduce asexually. The reason for male-female sexes is genetic diversity. Half of our chromisomes come from dad and the other half come from Mom. That's why we get things like mom's eyes and dad's stubby legs. Genetic diversity maximizes species survival in an ever changing environment. Those traits that are most favorable to survival in a particular environment make it easier for progeny to survive and reproduce.

Give that machines have finite memory, one can say that a male-female bonding for machines would take elements of code/skills frome each parent and create new hybrid code for the new protoform. This code would contain features from each parent, and like our chromosomes, would create some sort of code diversity so that a every transformer has a unique set of skills.

See, your argument is faulty here. Biodiversity is a benefit of sexual reproduction on Earth as opposed to parthenogenesis... but bearing in mind that we are dealing with alien life forms, and that even here on Earth, many species of life exist without the benefits of binary sexual reproduction... why do you need genders? And why 2? Why not 4?

Two normal non-gendered TFs can contribute data, tech, spark energies, materials, or whatever, to create a new, distinct being just as easily as a boxy one and a curvy pink one can. Why can't a TF have two "daddies"? Hell, a whole village of TFs could contribute to the construction, programming and subsequent activation of a new Transformer. Do we need to have romantic love between TFs? Do we need a nuclear family? Protoforms gestating in protruding abdomenal berths supported by slender Fembot hips? Nope.

Frankly the possibilities suggested by some aspects of the TF fictions... references to a certain degree of manufactured life, industrial assembly lines, arriving into "adulthood" fully formed, with preset "programming" in place... that's WAY more challenging (and interesting) stuff from a science-fiction point of view than "sometimes, when a boy-bot and a girl-bot like each other very, very much..."

zmog

[Wh33ls]

Wow. What a mentally stimulating topic, (yes I read it all) that I have to chip in!

Your statement SMOG;

See, your argument is faulty here. Biodiversity is a benefit of sexual reproduction on Earth as opposed to parthenogenesis... but bearing in mind that we are dealing with alien life forms, and that even here on Earth, many species of life exist without the benefits of binary sexual reproduction... why do you need genders? And why 2? Why not 4?

Two normal non-gendered TFs can contribute data, tech, spark energies, materials, or whatever, to create a new, distinct being just as easily as a boxy one and a curvy pink one can. Why can't a TF have two "daddies"? Hell, a whole village of TFs could contribute to the construction, programming and subsequent activation of a new Transformer.

Reminds me of that whole montage we see in the CGI film Robots, where the parents build the new baby, and beyond, by getting upgrades to "grow up" as it were to maturity. At first I found it funny because is was so out of the box of what us humans perceive of "normal" procreation. But I now see it as an ingenious example of story telling about how do robots procreate.

I can very well see, and except, this sort of explaination for the creation and/or appearance of new Transformers. Hell even the Dinobots back in G1 were created this way, by a group effort, including humans. Now mind you, if more skilled Autobots handled the creation and programming of the Dinobot brains, they may not have speech and logic anomalies.

[OneShallFall]

<----thinks they should be in the kitchen making him some Energon-O's.

[Sun Swipe Prime]

If there's potential to explore more imaginative and different territory, particularly in terms of what it means to be a genderless machine life form, why the hell would you want them to act and reproduce more or less just like us?

It's not that I don't like sex and romance... I just don't need it in my Transformers. It's not a good fit. There are other themes in Transformers that are better explored outside that conventional male/female box.

The thing about a story totally about genderless machine life forms that have no resemblance to humans or their culture is that an audience will have a hard time relating to those types of characters. The audences needs some reference point in order to connect with characters, machine or human. That's why most stories with alien life forms in them have human characters. That's why we have Shia Labouf and Megan Fox. We see the story unfold from the human point of view. We don't really get in to the head space of the machines or what it means to be a transformer. Story tellers give transformers human traits because it helps us connect with them and like them. If that happens, well, they sell more toys.

If you have a story about a totally alien life form that carries no resemblance to human society, how do you sell that to an audience as a story teller? How do you get the audience to connect emotionally with alien characters that can't be understood, except superficially? You can't have completely alien characters if you want the audience to connect with them in any way.

When a story invovles robots that have emotions and resemble humans, I think it opens up the door to having some form of gender. Why should there be an arbitrary exclusion of this when transformers are so obviously like us in so many other ways?

Generally speakin, I think sci-fi stories are explorations of ourselves rather than what it's like to an alien life form. They're allegories for us, humans and our society.

Giving the old imagination a whirl, I think, if living machines really existed, they'd be a hive mind, with out emotions because what use are emotions to a machine that comes off the assembly line? What advantages would there be to having emotions like anger, fear, even love. With out emotions there'd be no war between themselves, just total harmony within their society and how interesting is that?

[Scrapper6]

I can't believe how much you guys, zmog and the rest, debate this issue. In all seriousness Transformers began life as a 1980's Cartoon and Comic Book series. Boys age 5+ don't want to read mind blowing stories about non-gendered alien lifeforms called It fighting a civil war. (I mean just imagine the chaos, Megatron "Hey it get back here so I can blow you to pieces coward!" Starscream "Did you mean me oh mighty Megatron?" Soundwave "I believe he was referring to it." Skywarp "What did I do?" Bonecrusher "No you idiot it, it you know the ones with the red symbols?" Megatron "Oh just forget it already. <sigh>")

Trying to adopt a more serious take on Transformers fiction now that your grown up and all adult like defeats the purpose of just being nostalgic and remembering what you liked about these toys/cartoons/comics back in the heyday of childhood. It's great and all that we can debate this, but in the end run it makes little sense and would be IMHO a complete waste of time. We won't change anybody else's oppions to our way of thinking, we won't change Hasbro's or the creative teams cardboard esque cookie cutter molds for new Cartoon and Movie series. And we certainly won't magically change the past.

Transformers are all boys because we were once boys who watched them or read them as children and didn't want to be mentally scarred by having to figure out or pay attention to the logistics of a completely alien society. The girls were thrown in so our little sisters or cousins could find some characters to like and play with when we got together to play backyard killing free-for-all with Transformers, G.I.Joe, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, He-Man and Barbie. (If she brought any with her.)
Making up huge mythos' in your own fan-made universe that tells a deeper science fiction based story where they are actually all genderless with Arcee being curvy to reduce wind restiance and make it faster as some kind of scout bot or something is all well and good. And kudos to the imaginative creativity of we fans because we haven't let our imagination die like Hollywood seems to have done. But still arguing the point ad nauseum is just starting to make this thread look a little cluttered. (That plus I'm having a hard time finding a side to pick because there's just so many good valid points from both camps. So I think it's kind of played out as it were. Some of the threads have just been repeated with different wording at this point.)

So who's up for virtual backyard killing free-for-all? Dibs on Cobra! LOL :lol

[Bruticus82]

I just followed the whole cartoon "the Quintessons created them" idea. As we can see from Quintessa, the Quintessons seem obsessed with the idea of mechanically replicating organic life. Not sure why. They also decided to be weaponsmiths, and so they had this large factory-planet of cybertron where they created war robots (decepticons) and worker robots (autobots). This also explains why all decepticons can fly, but only some autbots. There's always an advantage in air superiority in battle, but little advantage to a flying medic, welder, or janitor. It would just be an additional cost that cuts into the quintesson profit margin.

Since they base their other robots on forms of organic life (fish, squid, alligators, shark-monsters from other planets). My suggestions is that transformers are modelled after humans. How you ask?

Well, (and here we get into my realm of crazy theories) quintessons are actually aliens from the distant future. They travelled back in time to get a head start on their robot-building business before there were any competitors. Using their advanced future technology they technoformed cybertron and created the transformers, modelled after their knowledge of humanity. On Cybertorn, Decepticons were male, and Autobots could be male or female, depending on their "job" so as to match up with what quintessons knew of earth culture for the time period they were attempting to emulate. When they sold robots to other cultures they could either accept the default gender assignments, or the quintessons could whip them up some custom robots to match the culture. So for example, a matriarchal society might order up a group of female Decepticon Valkyries to do their fighting for them.