What is Mold Degradation?

[Aernaroth]

Originally Posted by Magnimus

Ah, so it's not necessarily the constant reproduction of the toy itself but when the mold itself begins to fall apart that produces problems in subsequent toys.

Gotcha!

I'm not sure what you mean here. The mold will degrade the more you use it, so a production run of 10000 figures will result in more mold degradation than a run of 5000 figures. And obviously, the ones produced at the end of the run, after the degradation has occurred, will show more defects and problems.

Originally Posted by General Tekno

And in addition, the life of a mold depends on what it's made of.

For instance, that BW Dinobot mold must have had at least 9 lives given how often they reused it.

And I'm betting Starscream's mold from Classics is well backed-up since they clearly know to milk it for all it's worth with obvious repaints.

Other molds, like the minicon ones, are smaller and thus I imagine more prone to degradation - the Armada minicons are all pretty much dead mold-wise. G1 Bruticus' mold is probably shot as well given how many times it got reused.

Same goes for Fun Pub's remolds. They don't use materials that are as durable given they do limited production runs.

This is not necessarily true. First, yes, the life of a mold definitely depends on what its made of, but that's not to say the same molds are used for each toys. So long as the designs for the mold are still available, more molds can be made. Though as I said earlier, this is expensive and time-consuming. Still, it may be more cost effective for a company to create multiple molds using an easier to work with, cheaper (which does not necessarily mean worse) material and to cast in them until they are no longer usable, than to make one single mold to create all the castings from.

If a mold is used to make figures that sell well, such as starscream, bruticus and dinobot, it may be worthwhile just making more of that mold, than making a new mold. Additionally, it would save on the cost of designing a new mold for a new figure.

Furthermore, small molds are not necessarily more prone to degradation, assuming they have the same level of detail as a larger one. They may just have more molds, or make more minicons using the same sized mold.

I don't know how fun publications molds their figures (though I assume Hasbro still does it) [HINT HINT MAYBE ASK THEM IN THE MONTHLY Q&A], but the limited production runs may be a business decision, rather than an engineering one, or maybe the seacon molds still exist and could be used for that number of molds before they were too degraded (which would explain the quality issues some people are complaining about), or maybe you're right and they use molds that wear out sooner. But there's no way of knowing for sure until there's proof. Have you heard about this somewhere?

Originally Posted by Bruticus82

Some of the molds that have been destroyed or lost by Hasbro/Takara include the original soundwave mold (they used the Japanese Soundblaster mold for the TRU reissue), the G1 Mirage and Wheeljack molds, and all the Dinobots.

However, am I right in assuming one can reverse-engineer a mold? Isn't that what companies do to make knockoffs? Take a casting of the parts of a toy and make a mold based on that?

Yeah, I imagine a lot of the original molds form the 80s are long gone due to storage issues, wear and tear, and the inevitable advance of corrosion (as hotspot says: Rust Never Sleeps). The designs for said molds are probably similarly lost.

Reverse engineering is a lot easier when you're not worrying about tolerances or safety, and when your staff's time is not as expensive, and that's why I think its a lot more prevalent in making knockoffs. To reverse engineer a mold that Hasbro and Takara would be comfortable using might be too expensive or just not possible, just like Dark Rage said.

Originally Posted by Dark Rage

Have you seen the quality of the G1 KOs? Cheap molds = cheap quality toy.

It may also be the staff using the molds to create figures above and beyond what Hasbro hired them to do or after the molds have been deemed unusable, and/or using cheaper plastics and with less attention to quality and detail in order to create knockoffs. The cheaper they are able to make the knockoffs means more money when they sell them for a much lower price than the legitimate transformers.

Originally Posted by Protoman

They have a warehouse with 1000s of molds they used over the years from different lines and they feel it's possible it come mis-placed with all of that. Imagine like G1 Mirage's mold placed in a box along side Army Ant molds or their early WWF stuff...... who knows.

God, I love that story, it has a vibe to it like the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark. I would love to be set loose in that warehouse.

[Dark Rage]

If you want trustworthy and consistent molding technology, Bandai is still pumping out their original 1980 model kits, gotta love their efficient injection system...

Although those aren't toys though...Well, sort of, you just have to build them yourself and they're super expensive!

[Protoman]

Originally Posted by Dark Rage

Although those aren't toys though...Well, sort of, you just have to build them yourself and they're super expensive!

Bandai are a bunch of evil geniuses. Release a toy, that the consumer has to build and paint, cut out the workers and charge MORE then normal for the toy of the same scale and work.

[Echotransformer]

Hey guys...can't resist the chance to reply to this one!!

I'm an Industrial Designer and have designed many plastic parts using injection moulding...

Everyone is giving good information here...some added detail for interest sake:

-the material used to make the mold is a big factor. Most common tools are P20 steel, but there are other options for greater longevity (for more parts without signs of degradation) or lower cost (i.e. molds from aluminum for short runs).
-the resin is another huge factor. Some resins cause more degradation than others. We ran a part with glass fillers and we can only do this because it's low volume--it is wearing the mold rapidly.
-design is key. You need to think of draft angles and depth of texture to ensure the part pulls cleanly from the tool steel. Many parts need 'ejector pins' to push the part off the steel, and these can put extra force on the edges of the tool as the part is pushed out.
-the most common sign of mold degradation is flash. You know that thin little blade of plastic at the edge (aka parting line) that you used to break off your old model kits? Well those are two mold surfaces that aren't "blued" anymore and plastic is leaking out the edges from the pressure

A good recent example of mold degradation (sorry to say) is actually the TF Collectors club Seacon set. There is considerable flashing on these parts.

Something to also keep in mind about KOs and fan-made designs is that there are castings out there which are made from soft tooling like silicone and urethanes. I asked FansProject at TFCon about how they made Cliffjumper (which I'm 99% sure is cast) but they wouldn't elaborate. I think City Commander is injection-tooling.

Many KOs are made with 'tracing' machines that have a probe mounted to a larger device that operates a cutter in the steel. In many cases they can scale the size of the cutting motions up or down as they see fit--hence the reason why so many KOs are weird scales. The originating part being traced is important--if it is a less than stellar sample, that defect will show in all subsequent parts being made.

Any way I could go on forever...

[Dark Rage]

Originally Posted by Protoman

Bandai are a bunch of evil geniuses. Release a toy, that the consumer has to build and paint, cut out the workers and charge MORE then normal for the toy of the same scale and work.

You know you want a sleek Red Gundam model kit...

Yes, Bandai's kits are usually the most expensive in the world, but also the easiest kinds to make (no paint or glue required), considering that kits can be from a hundred (High Grade) to thousands of parts (Perfect Grade).

[Magnimus]

Originally Posted by Aernaroth

I'm not sure what you mean here.

I had been under the impression that it was primarily the constant reproduction of toys from the same mold that leads to mold degradation - which it does - but the thread opened my eyes to the other factors that can degrade a mold.

[General Tekno]

You know, I have to wonder about some of the Classics molds on that note...

The Henkei Astrotrain I got had a chunk of plastic sticking out of one of the shuttle pieces that prevented it from transforming flush. I exactoed that off but still.

And my Henkei Rodimus doesn't transform flush in altmode. After a comparison it appeared to be a problem with the crotchplate not wanting to screw in as much as it should - I tried to resolve that with no success.

[Echotransformer]

Originally Posted by General Tekno

You know, I have to wonder about some of the Classics molds on that note...

The Henkei Astrotrain I got had a chunk of plastic sticking out of one of the shuttle pieces that prevented it from transforming flush. I exactoed that off but still.

And my Henkei Rodimus doesn't transform flush in altmode. After a comparison it appeared to be a problem with the crotchplate not wanting to screw in as much as it should - I tried to resolve that with no success.

Interesting...do you have any pictures?

Henkei Astrotrain does sound like a flashing issue. So this is probably mold wear as discussed, but it may not be 'the end' of the mold. They can increase the clamping pressure of the machine, or they can 'blue' the tool, that is apply a blue ink on the core side and see how much transfers to the cavity side. Whatever doesn't transfer is not 'shutting off'. They can machine it true again, which is a common practice in mold maintenance...for example, we've scheduled maintenance with our suppliers every 500,000 parts on one of my projects.

As for Rodimus, it could be assembly error, flash preventing proper assembly or another problem with plastic parts--warp or 'creep'. If there's stresses in the plastic from poor flow, moisture, or other contaminants in the plastic (or sometimes bad tooling design) the part can actually change shape when it's still warm and 'green'.

Something for all collectors to keep in mind is the phenomenon of 'creep'. Plastic will change shape, however slightly over time. If you stack a bunch of TFs on top of each other or display them in a way that puts weight or slight pressure on a thin feature, that feature will bend and warp over time. It could get to the point where the toy won't transform correctly and surfaces won't line up. (I've made this mistake myself recently when I moved).

With great care this can be reversed using a heat gun or a jig to slowly return the part to shape--but it's not a fun thing to do to a vintage toy.

--Echo

[General Tekno]

Originally Posted by Echotransformer

Interesting...do you have any pictures?

Henkei Astrotrain does sound like a flashing issue. So this is probably mold wear as discussed, but it may not be 'the end' of the mold. They can increase the clamping pressure of the machine, or they can 'blue' the tool, that is apply a blue ink on the core side and see how much transfers to the cavity side. Whatever doesn't transfer is not 'shutting off'. They can machine it true again, which is a common practice in mold maintenance...for example, we've scheduled maintenance with our suppliers every 500,000 parts on one of my projects.

As for Rodimus, it could be assembly error, flash preventing proper assembly or another problem with plastic parts--warp or 'creep'. If there's stresses in the plastic from poor flow, moisture, or other contaminants in the plastic (or sometimes bad tooling design) the part can actually change shape when it's still warm and 'green'.

Something for all collectors to keep in mind is the phenomenon of 'creep'. Plastic will change shape, however slightly over time. If you stack a bunch of TFs on top of each other or display them in a way that puts weight or slight pressure on a thin feature, that feature will bend and warp over time. It could get to the point where the toy won't transform correctly and surfaces won't line up. (I've made this mistake myself recently when I moved).

With great care this can be reversed using a heat gun or a jig to slowly return the part to shape--but it's not a fun thing to do to a vintage toy.

--Echo

No pics, sorry.

Astrotrain was an easy fix though. And I think it's some kind of assembly problem in Rodimus to be honest - something is slightly misaligned I think - can't remember what exactly it was.

Still, this is all very interesting.

And for the record, I seem to recall reading that Fun Pub uses aluminum for their molds (and I think they get to use Hasbro's for the rest).

I know there was that incident where the Ravage X-9 mold was lost somehow after it was used to make the OTFCC Tigatron.

[Bruticus82]

There are some notorious problems, even within official G1 products. G1 Terrorcon Sinnertwin is usually seen with a narrow chest cavity that eventually leads to the head/neck in robot mode snapping off close to the base, or so I've read...and experienced.