Change to Hasbro Canada involvement in TFcon 2012

[Shepp]

Actually, I think Hasbro's finally realized they can't compete with the 3rd party companies.

They have to design, produce, and release not one, but an entire series of toys within a short time frame to satisfy their markets (big name stores, who then sell their stock to the consumers).

On top of that, they also have to handle some kind of fiction series for television or gaming systems or comics, and tie them into their toys, or vice-verse. Then they have to modify things to allow for sales in various global regions and satisfy a number of quality and safety regulations.

And beyond that, they have to care for their design staff who have been with them for a number of years and have seniority within the company, and therefore more input into designs, which have to drastically change every few years to satisfy their market (the stores) and yet still be "affordable" and innovative.

3rd party companies, on the other hand, can spend as much time as they want on a design to get it just right, and at that they don't have to pump out 10 unique things at once. They don't have to support a fiction franchise, they have a small staff and small manufacturing requirements, and can charge what they need to reach their markets (the consumers).
3rd party companies don't have to cater to stores and their demands, and have a different standard of safety and distribution requirements.

I don't think Hasbro is scared of what's going on right now, they're fearful of the future. When manufacturing plastic figures at home with one of those 3D printers is affordable enough to negate purchasing physical large company products. At that point they'd be competing with thousands to millions of product producers. And that might explain their push into being more of a content producer.


I dislike Knock-offs, except for some maybe as a novelty, but even those I still see as a problem. If you want to make your own reproduced part, sure. Go ahead. But don't sell them in mass quantity. Especially if you're trying to pass them off as the real thing. That's just not cool and I'd rather not support that.

3rd party, on the other hand, is a different story. I like 3rd party, there's new engineering and design and imagination that goes into them. Accessory kits are great. And completely new figures have engineering and design work that's gone into them. Not only that, often they'll do something that the manufacturer had no intention to do or license.

I think THAT's what really bugs Hasbro, the fact that the 3rd party companies (at least when they're producing Hasbro's IP, or using that IP) aren't part of the whole licensing system, and therefore can't be controlled by Hasbro. I'm surprised (and thankful) they've allowed Reprolabels to go on for so long.

Example, if Warbot Defender had a different deco and had an altered comic to eliminate any Transformers references, then Hasbro wouldn't have a leg to stand on. R.C., Steelcore, StarQ, Iron Army, and Mobine are completely new characters with only some aesthetic connections to Transformers if you look at the figures themselves. And the Targetroids, or JB Headmasters are something Hasbro just would never do.

I think its good that Hasbro is still coming at all. I'm also happy that Hasbro hasn't tried to take a giant foot and crush TFCon, considering their stance on everything lately. And I'm overjoyed that TFCon will allow 3rd party companies to be involved.

/rant

[Sureshot22]

nope nope. sorry.

don't know where you think you got the right info but hasbro cant seize anything at the border lol. even people that know nothing about law should know that that isn't possible.

[Hellboy]

My apologies if "spending time with my wife and kids" felt like a dig. It wasn't. I was planning on going to TFCon but that weekend conflicted with my family schedule. My response was only to verify that I was not attending and that it was not because I was boycotting out of disgust.

And again, I'm not attacking anybody. I'm not sure which blanket statements I was making that are being referred to. I'm siding with the facts that are present to my knowledge. TFCon organizers are offering bootleg product as an attendee incentive and Hasbro appears to be offended. I understand and agree with Hasbro. It's not something I would have chosen to do as a Con organizer either but it's no skin off my nose what they do. If I am wrong about anything regarding this please correct me.

I do feel the ill-feelings towards Hasbro Canada is a bit misplaced. Hasbro Canada will never have anything to reveal to us collectors. They don't make the big decisions and Hasbro USA controls the flow of information (I presume). The US Cons get everything first. What can we really expect from a Q&A panel that we don't already know or isn't just endless frustrated bitching about distribution?

I'm honestly wishing everyone who attends TFCon a good time. The events are fun. I love going to them. I'd be there if I could. I bare no ill-will to TFCon and its organizers and I appreciate Hasbro for keeping Transformers alive.

[Nightscrabbler]

Hellboy, just so you know, judging by their announcements and actions the last few years, TFcon organizers (I have not been on the staff for the last two years) have made every effort to prevent bootleg products being sold at TFcon by anyone. I don't think it's right to refer to 3rd party products as bootleg.


It may be your opinion that 3rd party products are benefitting from Hasbro's intellectual property and I don't disagree, but it's also true that Hasbro has benefitted a lot by fan contributions, including conventions. Furthermore, the argument against selling 3rd party products could be extended to people selling their TF artwork. Someone who draws an awesome Galvatron is not only having their work sold because they can draw, but also because the buyer probably has an interest in Galvatron. So? There's a lot of merit in what the artist has done, and the same can be said for makers of toys who have filled a niche that Hasbro can't or won't. And then there's the convention events itself... the trivia contests benefit from Hasbro's intellectual property, and you pay admission to the show to participate... so by the same logic, conventions ought to be banned.

Yes, the convention and many of the dealers, artists and guests who make it what it is are benefitting from what Hasbro does, but that itself doesn't make it wrong. If Hasbro believes 3rd party products are infringing on their trademarks, they can go after the 3rd party producers, but they haven't and I suspect they won't. That's not in their interest. And if they were *angry* at TFcon over the exclusives, then they wouldn't show up to the convention at all, but that's not what this is. This is a matter of policy and keeping appropriate distance. The show used to be known as TransformersCon, but Hasbro as a matter of practice doesn't want others using the word Transformers, so it was removed. That's policy, that's business. It's not a matter of being insulted or offended.

[Shepp]

Originally Posted by Hellboy

My apologies if "spending time with my wife and kids" felt like a dig. It wasn't. I was planning on going to TFCon but that weekend conflicted with my family schedule. My response was only to verify that I was not attending and that it was not because I was boycotting out of disgust.

And again, I'm not attacking anybody. I'm not sure which blanket statements I was making that are being referred to. I'm siding with the facts that are present to my knowledge. TFCon organizers are offering bootleg product as an attendee incentive and Hasbro appears to be offended. I understand and agree with Hasbro. It's not something I would have chosen to do as a Con organizer either but it's no skin off my nose what they do. If I am wrong about anything regarding this please correct me.

I do feel the ill-feelings towards Hasbro Canada is a bit misplaced. Hasbro Canada will never have anything to reveal to us collectors. They don't make the big decisions and Hasbro USA controls the flow of information (I presume). The US Cons get everything first. What can we really expect from a Q&A panel that we don't already know or isn't just endless frustrated bitching about distribution?

I'm honestly wishing everyone who attends TFCon a good time. The events are fun. I love going to them. I'd be there if I could. I bare no ill-will to TFCon and its organizers and I appreciate Hasbro for keeping Transformers alive.

True, Hasbro USA doesn't really care much about Hasbro Canada, much less Canada. I saw the same thing when I worked at Wal-Mart. Canada's basically a source of pocket change for the ginormous companies, as far as they're concerned.

Anywho, hopefully you have a great time at your family event.

I've missed TFCon in the past for my own wedding, and let me tell you, I'd go back and do it the exact same way if given the chance. Awesome day.

Hopefully there will be plenty of pictures and stories for you to see and hear about TFCon 2012 and you'll feel almost like you were there.

[Nullray]

I honestly don't think Hasbro has any worries when it comes to 3rd party manufacturing of items. In essences they should feel glad that the Fandom is so great that an aftermarket sub-culture has emerged. What other franchised toy line(s) can you think of that has a sub-culture driven to enhance and actually make Has/Taks products that much more sought after years after they are out of production? People take for granted the actual process it must take to engineer things from ground up with little to no overhead. Fandom pooling together resources to create or enhance an already established product. How many of us went out and bought an Onslaught for last years TFCon Headrobot exclusive if not already owned? I know I did. (awesome stuff guys) My point is that 3rd party items are here to stay and will continue to do so because it is an absolute love of the Transformers. If Hasbro/Takara makes something that is awesome or sometimes meh and then later down the road through a Fandom based third party development it becomes a true collectible. Who should complain when someone comes along with a vision to enhance it? It just makes us want more and drives the Fandom to think we missed out on that one and gotta get it. Hasbro/Takara wins because we the Fandom just keep coming back for more. The only fear Has/Tak should have is when the Fandom stops and the products are no longer wanted....

[gagagalvatron]

Originally Posted by Hellboy

And again, I'm not attacking anybody. I'm not sure which blanket statements I was making that are being referred to. I'm siding with the facts that are present to my knowledge. TFCon organizers are offering bootleg product as an attendee incentive and Hasbro appears to be offended.

That's not a fact. That's an opinion and a simplistic reduction of a complicated set of circumstances.

"Shafter" is (to my and tfwiki's knowledge) not an existing character. It is using a mold made by iGear that is their own design. It is based on G1 Huffer, but is a complete redesign of that toy to the point that it's effectively a new toy. With the new colour scheme, it no longer even looks like anything Hasbro produces or has produced.

Is that a bootleg? I don't think you'd find a court that would side with you on that. If TFCon were offering iGear's not-Huffer, there might be more of a case, but they're not.

Even if they were, it may not be enough to satisfy legal standards. Just today, a British judge said Samsung is not infringing Apple because Samsung's stuff is "not as cool". Even though it looks pretty similar to just about anyone with eyes. If you put G1 Huffer and iGear's not-Huffer next to one another, people would agree they're similar but they're clearly not the same. The very best they could hope for is that not-Huffer infringed the character, but not the actual product. With "Shafter", that is not an issue.

I don't think it's fair and it's certainly not "factual" to dismiss all third-party stuff as "bootleg". That' a loaded word and it can't be used to describe everything from knockoffs to completely new designs and retain any meaning.

Hasbro owns Transformers, but they don't own toys that transform from one thing to another. iGear and others have every right to make similar products. Whether or not they cross the infringing line is not a cut and dried statement: I'd say they do for some of their products, and they don't for others. I'd say "Shafter" is infringement-free.

I think the bigger issue here is that Hasbro is being stupid. They're missing out on a prime opportunity to market to people who want their stuff. Instead, that marketing opportunity will go to their competition. It may be policy, but it's one that is contrary to their interests. Worse, it's aiding the competition.

[JTR Hobby]

Originally Posted by Hellboy

I'm not attacking anybody and I did not bring a soap box. I am merely looking at the situation and presenting my perspective without any bias based on what I feel is "owed" to me as a collector. If I ran Hasbro (Canada) I would be taking what appears to be their stance on the matter as well.

I understand fully the frustration of collectors. I am one. I want every last Bumblebee melted down and turned into toilet seats. I hate every single Bayformer toy made. It pisses me off to no end that case assortments seem to be created without any thought and that wishing for new product is almost as hopeful as wishing for a Masterpiece Devastator.

What I also understand is that there is a business to be run. Collectors do not and cannot sustain the Transformers line. We may be the most avid and vocal portion of the market but we are also the least significant in terms of viability. Kids are the market but kids only buy stuff they see on TV or in movies. Retailers don't want anything without TV or movie support. That's a whole lot of money going out the door to make hour-long commercials just to get stuff on the shelves.

I'm pretty sure none of the 3RD Party people are sending any proceeds to help out.

And this is my take on what is done for us collectors. Do kids know who the hell Warpath is? I really doubt it but I'm as happy as Kup in an oil bath that Hasbro sold 100,000 POS Movie Optimus Primes to be able to wrap all that Kapow up in one little package for me. They didn't have to make him... they did because I'm a collector and they thought I'd appreciate it.

Lastly, I'd like to address the fact that the people "putting on TFCON for us all" are not doing so out of the goodness of their hearts. They are a business. They are making a profit. Getting a Hasbro exclusive might have been expensive but it would probably have been right up there with 3Rd Party prices which everyone seems to be okay with.

And yes, you are right, I am not attending TFCon but only because I'm unavailable that weekend. My wife and kids are taking priority over my toy collecting.

Enjoy the show. Have fun and I hope everyone gets what they are looking for.

100% agree with everything you said

[Robimus]

Originally Posted by Hellboy

TFCon organizers are offering bootleg product as an attendee incentive

Would you consider Kre-O bootleg Lego?

I'm just curious because while I understand what you are trying to communicate there seems to be a lot of gray areas surrounding this whole issue.

[Hellboy]

Originally Posted by gagagalvatron

I don't think it's fair and it's certainly not "factual" to dismiss all third-party stuff as "bootleg". That' a loaded word and it can't be used to describe everything from knockoffs to completely new designs and retain any meaning.

I cannot argue the legal issues surrounding intellectual property and copyright infringement. I am not a lawyer. I won't even begin to fathom the complications when it is an international affair where laws differ between countries.

What remains is that Hasbro sees the 3rd party product as an infringement and if it is such in their eyes then in my eyes it is an infringement/bootleg/knockoff/ripoff too.