Not cool

[razin]

http://www.cybertron.ca/boards/showthread.php?t=37064

U must of missed the rather large thread on this already.

[vohkuhl]

Originally Posted by razin

http://www.cybertron.ca/boards/showthread.php?t=37064

U must of missed the rather large thread on this already.

Well considering the thread title...

[Jonnydark]

Thanks i hadn't seen that.

[Sun Swipe Prime]

Originally Posted by Plainsjumper

No it's not a given. There are countries that have not industrialized at all, and there are others that have tried and failed spectacularly, and there are still others that have partially but then ultimately failed to achieve 1st world living conditions.

Which is off point. Again, I was making a comaristion between China currently, and what happened in the industrial revolution. Within that limited context it is a given because it's a fact.

Originally Posted by Plainsjumper

"The National Bureau of Statistics said on Thursday that the per-capita disposable income of urban residents reached 13,786 yuan ($1,907) for the full year, showing inflation-adjusted growth of 12.2 percent from a year earlier."

I'm assuming that's a average across all demographics. I'd be be more interested on how much a factory worker makes in comparison to that average. Is it higher or lower? Because that's what the topic is at hand, the condtions for the factory worker.

Originally Posted by Plainsjumper

From earlier: So I guess what you wrote earlier depends on what your definition of "is" is.

We all write and say things that aren't exacting to what our intended meaning is. That's why there's civil discussion. It clarifies things.

Originally Posted by Plainsjumper

Sure it does. See my previous post above. When a clearly well-funded documentary like China Blue fails to mention obvious things like PPP comparisons, when it fails to fully describe the reality of what life on a farm in rural China is really like, and when it fails to describe the role that China's government plays with respect to banning workers from being able to get or create labour representation services, or even to have open public discussions about working conditions in a free press then it has failed in telling the truth which is the whole point of a documentary in the first place. They could have chosen to discuss these issues but they did not. Ergo, propaganda.

Those are things that aren't within the intended scope of the documentary. It shows the story of a girl, a little of what her life was like on the farm and why she has to go work in a factory. It tells the owners side of things things and the workers. Within its limited scope, it mentions how it's illegal for workers to organize and it shows workers threatening to strike just so they can get paid. It mentions how complaining to their labour bureau is futile and that the connected owner can end issues with just a phone call. It also tells of how the Chinese government came in arrested the film makers and confiscated footage. All these things touch on what you mentioned above but don't directly address them in a full bodied manner

It's not propaganda or untruthful just because it doesn't cover the larger scope you seem to demand from it. One 55minute documentary can't address everything. It has to pick its scope and focus on that. If it tries to speak on too many topics it ends up saying nothing.

[Gaetznes]

What your about to read has really no deep relevance to the topic at hand, but I thought I would share none the less. If anything its allowed me to kill some time by writing this up before I play a game of monopoly with the friends.

Besides myself, has anyone else ever been in a sweatshop. I might add that I didn't know it was a sweatshop till several years later. It was in Montreal, at the time it was around 1994-7, located in a clothing district. Basically each building on this street was your standard faceless skyscraper around 30-50 floors. Note, going off the memories of when I was a 10+ year old. So humor me and don't take everything I say as 100% factual. Especially as child hood memories always seem to be more grand then they actually were.

I use to go up with my father and grandmother and buy Levis Jeans Red Label. and No Surrender t-shirts for between $8-10 and $4 respectively. It was odd, as I wondered why my grandmother was talking French to this guy. That being said, everyone else was of a Asian decent, with him being white. I recall there being several dozen sewing machines in that room, that we were in. Everything from Industrial size to the ones you would find in your parent's home. Plus at the time, I thought that the Large Industrial Steam Press were cool. I also remember going to Montreal only during the summer and complaining to my father about how hot and muggy it was in the building.

Years later my Grandmother told me when she worked for Calpse (defunct clothing store if memory serves me right), in Saint John. She use to go up to these districts that existed in Montreal, Quebec City, Toronto and even Vancouver and other places to buy Everything. From Bras to Mens suits. I found it at the time to be amazing that even as a 80 year old lady (early 2000's), she still had some connections there back in the 90's.

It wasn't until University that I understood about the exporting of the Textile Trade out of North America. Where as at the time that I went there, they were importing potential Undocumented Workers, being paid below the minimum wage of the time.

So at one moment, looking back, I'm going Yeah for paying less then $10 with no tax for Red Tag (well my dad paid, as I was around 10-13 at the time). On the other hand, the stores locally (in saint john) were selling them for $50-100 depending wither it was Orange Tag or Red Tag. The funny thing about it was, there was a discount Levis store down the street which sold the same jeans for something like 20% less the full mark up back in Montreal.

I think thats why I have such a problem with buying/paying $40 for a Cappy pair of jeans now. That I know wont last me a year or more.

Additionally, I have friends locally that travel or visit family in Europe and other Meditarian countries. If you can get the time and get into Greece or Turkey and know where to go, you can find some goodies. They have been able to bring me back some cheap priced cloths that would have cost me $10-40 or more here. The said, it has usually cost me the majority of say $5-10 for a pair of jean or a high quality dress shirt, to get it shipped here from Europe. However, not all the stuff is legit, that being that some of the stuff is Ko'ed.

As I understand it, Brazil has a big problem with counterfeit clothing. Also noted, is they have a large visible Chinese presence in the business/economics sector.

So yeah, just telling yeah some personal experiences for the sake of conversation. In reality its not really adding anything to this discussion, I'm just killing time. Thanks for listening.

[Hylo]

First of all, who cares? I mean really, do any of you truly give a shit what happens in China? I know I sure as hell don't.

Second, China will stop doing these things when their people rise up and change the government and how they are run.

Third, all of you saying 'gee I'd pay more if it went to the workers.' Let's remember, Deluxes were just 14.99 Canadian a year ago, now they are 17.99, you think those kids saw one red cent of that 3 dollar boost, HELL NO. It went tot he rich american corporate asshats in Rhode Island at Hasbro HQ.

And do you know what? Who cares, it still isn't going to change anything.

Enjoy Transformers, collect them, forget about China, the world NEEDS countries like China to function as third world nations for a reason, if everyone lived like we do in North America the world could not sustain the human population. It would take an average of 4-7 Earths if everyone lived as we do.

Be grateful you were lucky and born here and deal with it.

[CobraCommander]

If you like keeping an open mind on how the World works, you can check out "China Blue" online:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x55Rtq5JaUg

Another on toy products called "Santa's Workshop":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yF8jU...layer_embedded

[big dawg]

I agree 100%. might come off as a little crass, but hey, that is in fact how the world works

Originally Posted by Hylo

First of all, who cares? I mean really, do any of you truly give a shit what happens in China? I know I sure as hell don't.

Second, China will stop doing these things when their people rise up and change the government and how they are run.

Third, all of you saying 'gee I'd pay more if it went to the workers.' Let's remember, Deluxes were just 14.99 Canadian a year ago, now they are 17.99, you think those kids saw one red cent of that 3 dollar boost, HELL NO. It went tot he rich american corporate asshats in Rhode Island at Hasbro HQ.

And do you know what? Who cares, it still isn't going to change anything.

Enjoy Transformers, collect them, forget about China, the world NEEDS countries like China to function as third world nations for a reason, if everyone lived like we do in North America the world could not sustain the human population. It would take an average of 4-7 Earths if everyone lived as we do.

Be grateful you were lucky and born here and deal with it.

[Plainsjumper]

Originally Posted by Sun Swipe Prime

It's not propaganda or untruthful just because it doesn't cover the larger scope you seem to demand from it. One 55minute documentary can't address everything. It has to pick its scope and focus on that. If it tries to speak on too many topics it ends up saying nothing.

The director chose a conclusion first and then selected footage on that basis. So he's therefore pushing an agenda.

In any event why bring China Blue into the discussion at all? You can't use it as an example of Hasbro's practices when it doesn't cover a factory making Hasbro's products, and doesn't discuss the broader issues I've raised, but then simultaneously defend the film's narrow focus as being pertinent to the discussion.

[Sun Swipe Prime]

Originally Posted by Plainsjumper

The director chose a conclusion first and then selected footage on that basis. So he's therefore pushing an agenda.

The film is trying to speak on a certain subject, what the conditions are like for workers in a factory. So it introduces a what it's trying to show, and supports it with information in the form of footage. It's like a visual essay like those 5 paragraph essays we're taught in school. If the supporting infomation is weak and the information against strong, what the film is trying to show is proven to be false.

Without a direction the film is just random footage without meaning and context. By your standards, all essays in any form are propaganda. Propagand being defined as being unfair and untrue.

Originally Posted by Plainsjumper

In any event why bring China Blue into the discussion at all? You can't use it as an example of Hasbro's practices when it doesn't cover a factory making Hasbro's products, and doesn't discuss the broader issues I've raised, but then simultaneously defend the film's narrow focus as being pertinent to the discussion.

China Blue was mentioned as a side note, as suggested viewing for those interesting in knowing what a working in a factory was like in China. It was never used as support for an argument for or against Hasbro's practices. But it does bring up the question, if this is what it's like in a jean factory, are there similar conditions in a toy factory?

You've lost focus on what this part of our discussion is about. It was about whether China Blue was propaganda or not. You took the side of it being propagana in terms of it being untruthful and unfair because it didn't have a broad enough scope. I'm arguing that it is a fair documentary and that scope has nothing to do with something being truthful and fair.