Star Wars Discussion (The Last Jedi Spoilers Within!)

[Sun Swipe Prime]

Originally Posted by Robimus

Most people that I ask about what the relationship of the Resistance to the Republic have no clue

Though I agree this could have been a little clearer. Here's what I got from the film. The Republic is part of the greater galaxy. They support the rebels as they try to restore peace to the galaxy.

So, I'm not sure how that was convoluted.

If you want to look at convoluted, how about blockading a planet to stir things up to get a Queen to rush to the senate to plead for help, and when that help is denied, hope that she calls for a vote of non-confidence on the current Chancellor in order to get one's self elected as the new Supreme Chancellor.

Now that's convoluted. Why not just use an assassin, OR better yet, run in the next election and run a heck of a campaign using your Sith powers to manipulate popular opinion?

Originally Posted by Robimus

Then we have the First Order. Why did they attack the New Republic? To be evil, yes - but what is the end goal?

To my recollection, to stop them from aiding the rebels in finding Luke. BB8 was still on the lose, so this was an attempt to cut off aid from the republic and their fleet.

Originally Posted by Robimus

They destroyed a bunch of Republic worlds(and apparently most of he Republic Fleet according to the Visual Dictionary) - and then they sit there waiting to get attacked?

They don't launch an invasion. They don't issue any demands - they just seem to have no long term goal that is conveyed onscreen that I recall.

That's the thing, they only need to do one thing to guarantee their supremacy, stop the rebels from finding Luke. No Luke, no Jedi. No Jedi, no hope for the rebels, and no peace for the galaxy.

Once they do that they can make all the demands they want. They just dropped the atom bomb. They don't need to invade. They just have to wait for people to surrender.

Originally Posted by Robimus

There really is no way to prove those characters are disliked by the masses in general. Just look at Rotten Tomatoes - 79% of Professional Reviewers gave Revenge of the Sith positive reviews - and each film has had a general rating of 60%-65% of the regular audience enjoying the films based on that rather prominent review site.

There's no way to prove things to a 100% certainty, but I'd point out that Jake Lloyd, the kid who played young Anakin, Darth Vader, a character that should be loved, got so much hate he quite acting, destroyed all his memorabilia, and pretty much hates everything about Star Wars from that experience.

That's got to be some serious hate, to not only hate the character, to hate the actor too for doing it, an actor who was a kid.

I mean in contrast Joffery from Game of Thrones is a hated and despised character, but a character that people love to hate, but from my impression, the actor doesn't get hate at all for his role.

Originally Posted by Robimus

There is a huge difference at the core of the Prequels when compared to TFA. The Prequel setting is a story about a society trading freedom for security. There are some similar elements to the OT in the Prequels sure, but there is a lot of fresh material.

To me, that's the problem. The things that come to mind when you think about the prequels are treaties, politics, senates, and all that gobbly gook, not characters, unless it's Jar-Jar. And that's not good.

Originally Posted by Robimus

I'm honestly not even sure what the Sequel Trilogy is even about yet. A cold war with the First Order? The Rise of the First Order? The fall of the Republic?

See, I think you're looking for the grand scale things and ignoring what stories are about, characters. That's what the OT was about, a farm boy dreaming of becoming a pilot, and finding a destiny beyond his farm.

TFA is a story about people, Rey and Fin, discovering their path in life.

For Rey it's about not waiting for what you want to come to you. It's about going out and getting it.

For Fin, it's about following your conscience and your heart, and not blindly following or running.

Originally Posted by Robimus

The galactic scale of the film is missing parts right now, a lot of them. The Phantom Menace, for all its faults, was a more well put together story onscreen than TFA is.

Then we have very different definition of what we consider a well put together story.

Originally Posted by Robimus

We understood the state of the galaxy and we understood the motivations of characters in The Phantom Menace very quickly.

Ok, what made Qui Gon and Obi Wan tick? What did they dream of? What did they want outside of fighting the bad guys?

For Rey, she wanted her family to return to her. For Fin, he didn't want to fight. He wanted a life away from the First Order.

I don't know the answers for these questions for Qui Gon or Obi Wan, even after three films.

For characters, these are the most important questions. It's what takes them from puppets executing a plot to real characters.

Originally Posted by Robimus

It did have mystery to it - but all the stuff we should know launching a trilogy we did. TFA drops the ball on that fairly significantly in my opinion.

I think this is where we differer on expectations. Correct me if I'm wrong. But I think you want to hear about the fate of the galaxy, how the galaxy is affected by the events of the movie.

I want to hear about the fates of Rey, Fin, Kylo, Poe, etc. The fate of the galaxy, well, to me, that's just the stage, the backdrop which the characters pass in front of. The back drop can be revealed as needed in my eyes. I don't need to know it all at once.

[jacobot]

This movie to me was great just to see what happened to Han, Leia, Chewie, and Luke 30 years later. It handed it off to the next generation and hopefully some big galactic plot will emerge... next movie.

[Hawkeye]

Read an article today called '27 Force Awakens questions answered by the novelization' http://mashable.com/2015/12/29/force.../#RmHd7sRRKPqM

Amongst other things it gives a little bit more fleshing out to the state of the Republic and what the First Order is all about.
The First Orders goal is basically stated by Kylo Ren:

“... It is the task of the First Order to remove the disorder from our own existence, so that civilization may be returned to the stability that promotes progress. A stability that existed under the Empire, was reduced to anarchy by the Rebellion, was inherited in turn by the so-called Republic, and will be restored by us. Future historians will look upon this as the time when a strong hand brought the rule of law back to civilization.”

It also gives a bit more depth to the First Orders reasons for destroying that system:

"Their center of government, its entire system. In the chaos that will follow, the Resistance will have no choice but to investigate an attack of such devastating scale. They will throw all their resources into trying to discover its source. So they have no choice but to investigate fully, and in so doing…"
"Reveal themselves.”

One of my issues with the film was also that I didn't get the galactic feeling from it. When the Starkiller base fired, then people on other planets could see both the beam and the exploding planet, it made it feel (to me) that it was all happening in one Solar System. Then when people went into hyperspace only to seemingly get to their destination in minutes rather than hours or days, it all just felt very compressed.

Hopefully when I see the movie again I wont feel the same way.

[Blitzwing]

After seeing it twice and letting it set in for a while, here are my thoughts:

-JJ gave fans what they wanted by retreading things from Episode IV. It may have been the safe play, but it worked very well, and he was also able to add enough new elements to make things feel fresh. I've seen a lot of people say that they didn't like the similar plot, but I feel that it was the right move to kick off the new trilogy. I hope, however, that Episodes VIII and IX don't continued this trend and take the story into it's own territory.

-The new characters introduced are all very intriguing and I'm having a hard time picking my favorite. Han and Chewie stood out as having the largest roles among the returning cast and seemed to step back into their roles perfectly. I think Luke, Leia, R2 and the rest will have plenty of screen time in future installments.

-The legacy of the Skywalkers has been the focal point of all the Episodes, and that was continued with Kylo Ren in this one (although he is technically a Solo, he still has Skywalker blood). I hope he is the only legacy character though, I don't want Rey to be a Skywalker, I hope she is something new. The mystery about her family leaving Jakku is something that needs to be addressed in future installments but I hope it is something unrelated to Luke and Leia. Same with Fin, I don't want to find out he's related to Lando or Mace, let him be his own man.

-Speaking of Fin, I don't think he's force-sensitive, or if he is, he probably is only as strong as Leia is. I think most of his abilities come from his military training and he'll be more of a Han type character than a Luke. I would like to see Rey (and maybe Luke) be the ones that handle Kylo and Snoke and have Fin, Poe, Leia and Chewy be the ones that tackle the non-force aspects of the First Order.

-The ambiguity of the First Order and what their role is in the larger Galaxy is part of their mystery and I'm fine with that aspect not being fleshed out in this movie. A lot of criticism for the Prequels were that they were too political (although I don't share that criticism), so I think JJ wanted to make sure that this installment stayed small and character driven. I think we'll get a better idea of what the First Order is and what their place is in the galaxy in Episode VIII.

All in all, I loved the movie going experience both times I saw it. It is one of those films that will take time to really be able to give a proper criticism of. A lot of it will depend on how the next two Episodes go and if they add to the story that was set up by this one.

[Robimus]

Originally Posted by Sun Swipe Prime

Ok, what made Qui Gon and Obi Wan tick? What did they dream of? What did they want outside of fighting the bad guys?

Qui-Gon laid out very plainly what the life of a Jedi was in his discussion with Anakin. I don't see the confusion there at all.

The film itself made it very clear what the life of a Jedi was - no attachment, no family, so on. Their lives were given over to maintaining peace and justice in the Republic, just as Obi-Wan described in A New Hope.

Originally Posted by Sun Swipe Prime

I want to hear about the fates of Rey, Fin, Kylo, Poe, etc. The fate of the galaxy, well, to me, that's just the stage, the backdrop which the characters pass in front of. The back drop can be revealed as needed in my eyes. I don't need to know it all at once.

No, I'm good with learning about the fates of the characters - it doesn't mean I shouldn't know the fate of the galaxy as well.

A New Hope didn't leave that stuff out, because the back drop was an important part of the story.

Originally Posted by Sun Swipe Prime

f you want to look at convoluted, how about blockading a planet to stir things up to get a Queen to rush to the senate to plead for help, and when that help is denied, hope that she calls for a vote of non-confidence on the current Chancellor in order to get one's self elected as the new Supreme Chancellor.

Palpatine manipulated the vote of no confidence out of convenience from the situation, it wasn't "hope". I never got the impression that all his eggs were in one basket, or that his plans would have somehow completely fallen apart without that. It just moved his timetable forward.

It isn't that different from the current political climate in many countries. Why do people support Donald Trump? Because they seem him as the answer to things they are concerned about(I'm trying to not get to into real life political here as it is against the TOS).

Support for Palpatine would be similar and came across as very realistic to me. Who better to fix the Republic than the one who has gained attention from what the Republic has allowed to happen to his planet?

Originally Posted by Sun Swipe Prime

There's no way to prove things to a 100% certainty, but I'd point out that Jake Lloyd, the kid who played young Anakin, Darth Vader, a character that should be loved, got so much hate he quit acting, destroyed all his memorabilia, and pretty much hates everything a

Yet he still does Star Wars conventions. And is friends with tons and tons of Star Wars fans online.

In anycase, he didn't deserve the level of criticism he received. There was nothing wrong with his performance in general.

Keep in mind that for as much as you hate The Phantom Menace, it will still be the second highest grossing Star Wars film of all time behind TFA.

Originally Posted by Sun Swipe Prime

See, I think you're looking for the grand scale things and ignoring what stories are about, characters. That's what the OT was about, a farm boy dreaming of becoming a pilot, and finding a destiny beyond his farm.

My criticisms are aimed at the grand scheme of things, yes. That isn't the only thing I'm looking at as you suggest.

When I say I thought the film was fun and that the characters were good that is what I mean. When I say that the state of the galaxy and background into the current political climate are bad, that is what I mean. One doesn't forgive the other.

The Original Trilogy never sacrificed the setting for the characters, I don't see why the new film had to either.

Originally Posted by Sun Swipe Prime

To me, that's the problem. The things that come to mind when you think about the prequels are treaties, politics, senates, and all that gobbly gook, not characters

It was a very different setting from the OT for sure, a very different story. You clearly didn't take to it, that much is clear.

I rather enjoyed it. It was fresh and different. I liked the characters well enough, not as much as I liked Luke, Han, Leia & Chewie, but that was never a prerequisite to enjoy the film.

That said, as previously mentioned, I thought Palpatine was incredible. I think a lot of the nuance of his performance was lost in the fact that we already knew he was the villain, but that didn't make it any less fun for me.

It really is Palpatine's story as much as it is Anakin's. It is almost experimental in that way - it isn't a heroes journey. It is the journey of two villains and how they brought the Empire into being.

I don't think it is given enough credit, but that's just me

[Team Jetfire]

Originally Posted by Robimus

Yet he still does Star Wars conventions. And is friends with tons and tons of Star Wars fans online.

In anycase, he didn't deserve the level of criticism he received. There was nothing wrong with his performance in general.

I agree 100%. I feel VERY bad for both Jake Lloyd and Hayden Christensen as to their treatment following these films. The final result was not their fault and they did the best they could do with the material they were given.

[jjwankenobi]

Originally Posted by Team Jetfire

I agree 100%. I feel VERY bad for both Jake Lloyd and Hayden Christensen as to their treatment following these films. The final result was not their fault and they did the best they could do with the material they were given.

+1

The problem was Lucas as a director. He may have been the source and brain trust for the SW Universe but he lacked the ability to direct his actors to emote beyond the green screen backdrop.

Kirshner, Marquand and Abrams were/are seasoned directors with knowledge on how to coax performances out of their actors. Lucas couldn't get beyond using his performers as part of the set pieces.

Of course the exception to this is ANH which worked with Lucas in the chair because he was breaking new ground and even he wasn't sure what he was doing in '77 so Ford, Hamill, Fisher Guinness etc., pretty much filled in the characterizations themselves.

When the PT started with TPM in '99 I think Lucas was more focused on making images as the primary story teller so characters/performances became secondary.

Hayden does receive a lot of flack for his wooden performance in the PT. Some of its is deserving (he's not a very dynamic actor). But Terence Stamp, Ewan McGregor, Christopher Lee, Natalie Portman...heck, even Samuel "Bad Motherfucker" Jackson...they all put in flat performances under Lucas' direction too.

[Darth Cylon]

Caption this?

[Sun Swipe Prime]

Originally Posted by Robimus

Qui-Gon laid out very plainly what the life of a Jedi was in his discussion with Anakin. I don't see the confusion there at all.

The film itself made it very clear what the life of a Jedi was - no attachment, no family, so on. Their lives were given over to maintaining peace and justice in the Republic, just as Obi-Wan described in A New Hope.

I'm not talking about life of a Jedi in general. I'm talking about personal wants. Sure a police officer wants to protect and serve, but as a person, a human, somebody that's a living breathing entity that's real, and not just a cog in the machinery of an organization, what do they want for themselves?

I know Jedis aren't suppose to want frivolous things, but they can want to be great teachers. They can want to be great swordsmens. They can want to unlock certain mysteries of the Force. They can want a gazillion things that don't involve breaking the Jedi code.

Knowing these things about characters, again, are a part of what brings them to life in story.

Without them, characters are hollow.

Originally Posted by Robimus

A New Hope didn't leave that stuff out, because the back drop was an important part of the story.

I was thinking about what did we really learn in ANH about the state of the Galaxy. We learned there's the oppressive Galactic Empire, and the Rebels who fight them.

Then I thought about what we learn in TFA, there's the oppressive First Order, the remnants of the Galactic Empire, and the Rebels, with the support of the Republic, who fight them.

I'm not sure there was a deeper understanding in ANH. They mention the senate a few times, but never really give us a whole lot of detail. To me that's like them mentioning the Republic and never giving us a whole lot of detail.

I agree, that TFA is lacking in a bit of clarity on that front, but I wonder if its not just because of the names. When you mention the name First Order, it doesn't conjure the same clear image as Galactic Empire. When you say Rebels vs Empire. There's a clearer understanding when compared to Rebels vs First Order.

Originally Posted by Robimus

Palpatine manipulated the vote of no confidence out of convenience from the situation, it wasn't "hope". I never got the impression that all his eggs were in one basket, or that his plans would have somehow completely fallen apart without that. It just moved his timetable forward.

It doesn't make it any less convoluted.

Originally Posted by Robimus

Yet he still does Star Wars conventions. And is friends with tons and tons of Star Wars fans online.

People can make a pretty good living just doing conventions. How many people go to jobs they hate and force a smile onto their faces as they go about the day because it pays the bills?

I mean you can google up articles about how he feels about Star Wars. In this awkward interview, he kind of makes it pretty clear at a convention that he doesn't want to be there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEmgio0VV1E

Originally Posted by Robimus

In anycase, he didn't deserve the level of criticism he received. There was nothing wrong with his performance in general.

He obviously didn't. Jake caught splash damage because people disliked Anakin.

Originally Posted by Robimus

Keep in mind that for as much as you hate The Phantom Menace, it will still be the second highest grossing Star Wars film of all time behind TFA.

First, I wouldn't say I hate the prequels. When I first saw them I though they were OK. Then through multiple viewings, I grew a strong dislike towards a lot of things in them, mostly because of wasted potential.

Second, just because many people saw it doesn't mean they came out liking it. Phantom was the first Star Wars movie in over fifteen years. It was a cultural must see. Of course lots of people went.

Third, the original series came out at a time when foreign box office wasn't a big thing, and ticket prices were significantly lower.

If you look at all time domestic box office and adjust for inflation, each film in the original series grossed more.

http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/adjusted.htm

Originally Posted by Robimus

I don't think it is given enough credit, but that's just me

Here's what I think. The general idea behind the prequels is good, but the execution, in my eyes, was terrible.

[Robimus]

The Force Awakens would have been far more fun if it had a bit more the like of this city of this from Guardians of the Galaxy. Amazing visuals - I think JJ abrams should be almost ashamed that Guardians of the Galaxy did a better job with setting than he did. Star Wars should have blown away, or at least matched, what other directors are coming up with.

Originally Posted by Sun Swipe Prime

If you look at all time domestic box office and adjust for inflation, each film in the original series grossed more.

Money in my bank account doesn't get adjusted for inflation

I'd actually love to see something accounting for total number of tickets sold, as I think the OT would be up there based on it being in theaters for like 7 straight years plus the Special edition release in 1997 which added 138 million to the total.

Honestly, ticket prices are significantly more now compared to what I paid to watch Phantom Menace in 1999 on opening day. This whole 3D thing has added like $4 to every ticket sale, and prices were already up.

Anyway, as I said earlier the Prequels inspired multiple popular animated series, both of which won Emmy awards and had a significant amount of viewership. If people hated them that much we wouldn't have seen any of that.

Just to reiterate, the Prequels not being as popular as the OT doesn't make them bad.

Originally Posted by jjwankenobi

Hayden does receive a lot of flack for his wooden performance in the PT. Some of its is deserving (he's not a very dynamic actor). But Terence Stamp, Ewan McGregor, Christopher Lee, Natalie Portman...heck, even Samuel "Bad Motherfucker" Jackson...they all put in flat performances under Lucas' direction too.

One can say the same thing about the OT as well though. I actually know someone who laughed at Mark Hamill in ESB after he got his hand cut off and Vader told him he was his father because they thought his acting was so bad. In fact many pro reviews mention the bad acting in the OT. Personally I think the acting in the OT was better than the Prequels, but the Prequels were a very different type of story for better or worse, as has been pointed out.