Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun Swipe Prime
So what you're saying is they gave us a poorly told story and we can't change that so it shouldn't even be discussed? We shouldn't point out the flaws. We should just accept what's been put on our plate and be grateful, thankful to almighty powers that be, that we even have a movie? A script can allways be made better. It just takes the will to do it.
|
Yes that is precisely what I said. *Note Sarcasm Levels*
What I said was, thinking that our opinions will make them go out and shoot new shots for an extended cut or director's cut or Transformers Fans Demand it cut is ludicrous and unrealistic. We may be able to get Hasbro to do certain things, but we will never, NEVER get a multimillion dollar film making company to reshoot an entire film just because 'WE DON'T LIKE IT, BAY SUCCORS! F*CK BAY GIVE US THE BETTAH MOVIE NOW!'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun Swipe Prime
Of couse it makes sense. But, I was giving them too much credit when I thought otherwise. I thought maybe they'd be clever and add more to the meaning of the title than the obvious.
|
Right, like that's ever happened before in a movie? I suppose The Phantom Menace actually refers to something more than just the Sith working in the shadows. Like, oh I don't know, maybe the ghosts of the dead Jedi are secretly running around in the film and you can't see them because Lucas filmed them in invisible 3D.
Oh wait I forgot you don't like the Prequel films, bad analogy, sorry it's all I could think of for title comparisons.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun Swipe Prime
I don't think its unusal, I just extrapolated from what was happening in the movie at the point the thought popped into my mind. I knew what the fallen was. Like I said above, I was giving them too much credit to try something not obvious.
|
Yeah I think you were, titles with double meanings are rare if you ask me. And they certainly wouldn't be part of a Transfomers movie.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun Swipe Prime
The fact that neither you or I are sure what Star Scream's motivations are goes onto the flaws the film has.
|
What motivations? Does he need motivations? He's Starscream, simpering coward from G1 that we all know and love so I guess that means he's exactly what the fans wanted. Too bad they don't have him expressly tell you, 'Oh hey Lord Megatron I'm really here to kill the Fallen and take his place, so I can rule the Decepticons. *Turns to the audience* Did you get all that simpering fanbase fleshbags watching this movie with your love of G1. That's right I'm not Armada Starscream, I'm not Animated Starscream I'm G1 Starscream. Bwahahah.'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun Swipe Prime
See another point of confusion, a flaw.
|
You see a point of confusion, I see a point of interest and expansion via imagination and deep heavy thinking. Perhaps because I write so much fanfiction, perhaps because I've always had this large imagintion that lets me see past what could be a potential flaw and instead an opportunity to expand the movieverse world with my own interpretations of the metaphysical properties of the Matrix of Leadership.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun Swipe Prime
It's fine to have a Mcguffin, but the fact that you're having to speculate on the why's of it's name indicates another big flaw in the movie. The movie should be the one explaining these things to me. I mean it doesn't have to give me the exact details of the "magic" of things but it should make sense and calling it the Matrix of Leadership doesn't make sense without a better explanation from the move.
|
Jetfire told us it was called the Matrix of Leadership, the ancient Primes told us Sam had to earn it he couldn't just find it. We were also told that its energy can activate sun harvesters and ressurect fallen Primes, maybe even others. What more do we need? 'This is the Matrix of Leadership, it is called this because 25 years ago the original Transformes cartoon movie introduced it to the mythos. This version is shaped differently, it has all the same properties as the original G1 version, but it also allows The Fallen to turn on his version of the Solar Needle to destroy your sun and gain Energon with which we survive.'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun Swipe Prime
First, a movie can connect up with a previous one, significantly, and still stand alone, without the need to watch the first. You mentioned spiderman, well I think spiderman 2 holds up on it's own even if you haven't seen the first.
|
Maybe so, but I think Revenge of the Fallen stands well with having seen the first one or without. I mean to be honest the first movie resolved all of the major plot points. Would you have preferred that the first half of this movie told us in excrutiating detail... What happened to Barricade? Where did Starscream go? What did the Autobots do with Jazz's body? Where are Maggie and Glen? Where's John Keller? Why is Simmons working in a deli? (Oh wait they did tell us that, whoops my bad.) Ok how about, where the hell is Tom Banacheck? The rest of Sector Seven, where are they? Why aren't they working in the shadows still trying to kill Autobots and Decepticons? Where the hell did all these new Autobots come from? (Oh, Prime told us that too right at the beginning, what a coincidence.) Is that what you wanted to see, because quite frankly adressing all of those issues would have made the first half of this movie, slow, pointless, and utterly boring. We don't need all of that damn exposition crap for the minor plotpoints left open at the end of the first movie.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun Swipe Prime
Second, are you claiming that the half of the people who are going to see ROTF haven't seen the first movie? Come on, that kind of defeats the purpose of a sequel, to bring those who saw the first movie back to see second. The people who are seeing ROTF are, by a significant majority, people who have seen the first movie.
|
No, it does not defeat the purpose/reason for making a sequel. Yes making a sequel is predominantly for the fans of the first one, but are you going to sit there and tell me that every single person on the planet saw the first Transformers and now wants to see Transformers Revenge of the Fallen? I don't think so, when I say half of the people going to see this are people who never saw the first one I'm being generous in my estimate, but I'll bet you I'm being close to accurate in said estimation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun Swipe Prime
So what you're saying is that the fans opinions don't matter and will never affect anything that that the movie makers choose to do. Neither hasbro nor Michael Bay et al. will listen to us. So we should keep our opinions to our selves. That is so not true.
|
No, I did not say that, or imply that, you can opine 'til the cows come home but there is no way in hell we're ever going to get Michel Fing Bay to re-shoot RotF the way you, or I or anybody else would want it. RotF is done, it is in the can to use an older expression, we can't change dick all about it. Move along, try and see if we can't make them rethink how they do Transformers 3... oh wait, that's exactly what we did do for Transformers 2. All of our complaints were looked at from the first movie and then they went and made the changes for this movie, whoops guess we messed up, huh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun Swipe Prime
It's a bit confusing but are you saying they actually set out to make a flawed movie, and again saying that the opinions of the fans doesn't matter?
|
No my friend, I am saying they set out to make this movie the way they wanted to. That you percieve it as flawed is your opinion, it does not reflect the fact that the FILMAKERS percieve their film as flawed. They thought it was bang on the nose perfect, you aren't going to change that, Bay doesn't give one iota for critics who talk down his movies and call it utter tripe or crap or what-have-you. What makes you think he's going to start doing that now just because we tell him, look you really messed up here, I don't undertand the flow of this basic simple little plot that Kurtzman and Orci cooked up probably while eating reefer filled brownies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun Swipe Prime
Nobody ever said they expected the next Citizen Kane but they can reasonably expect a well told story without massive logic gaps and plot holes. No movie is without its flaws, but when a movie contains so many, it's kind of hard to stick your head in the sand and ignore them. And another thing, Michael Bay HAS made better films, The Rock being a fine example. So why couldn't he make ROTF on the same level of quality as that? And don't blame the script becasue a director can demand rewrites. And finally, to demand better is not illogical. To say that our opinions don't matter is illogical.
|
Ok, you know what, except for an ocassional tv viewing years ago of both Bad Boys and The Rock I have never really seen any Michel Bay movies, oh sure there was Armageddon and maybe one or two others in the theatres, but those films don't stick in my mind like say, Snow White and the Seven Dwarves or Jurassic Park. Because I'm not a Michel Bay fan, what I am is a Transformers fan, I obsess enough over Transformers to waste trees worth of paper just to keep writing down the same toyline series lists of all the toys that were released in a given series and how many Autobots and Decepticons there were in each one. (And Mini-Cons too.)
As a Transformers fan, I fail to see the flaws that others have, my mother an avid non-Transformers fan who has seen both movies with me also fails to see the flaws that others have. She liked the movie, I liked the movie, telling me there are flaws there may open my eyes slightly to adress and acknowledge these facts, but like I said, I have a big imagination and an avid writers mentality. I can easily come up with something to explain away these 'so called' Flaws to my liking and enjoy the movie without overanalyzing it to death.
I mean it's not like I go back and watch Back to the Future and say, HOW DOES THE FLUX CAPACITOR work? (They never told us the science behind how it actually works, all we know is plutonium and Mister Fusion powers it allowing the car to travel through time once it reaches 88 MPH.) So I'm never going to start looking at Revenge of the Fallen as a flawed movie. Because it isn't, not to me, and telling me over and over again that I'm wrong, I'm an idiot, I shouldn't have to use my imagination to fill in story gaps because that's not what watching a movie is all about, well do you think the rabid fanbase of the original Star Wars ever said. Wow, why didn't they make a film about the Clone Wars first instead of A New Hope? What did Obi-Wan mean when he said he was friends with Anakin Skywalker, what did Anakin Skywalker look like, what do you think the Clone Wars were like?
Back in '77 people weren't asking all these questions because they were enjoying Star Wars for what it was. Then Lucas went and told everybody exactly what happened and half the fanbase went all up in arms because it didn't match what they had IMAGINED it would be in their minds. Star Wars inspired people to fill in gaps for plot holes or what have you. Why can't Revenge of the Fallen?
