No 3rd Party Toys at Botcon 2012

[Bruticus82]

Justprime and team jetfire, seems like your main point of disagreement is not whether Hasbro can ban these figures from botcon, but whether they should ban these figures from Botcon - a question on which a difference of opinion need not make either of you wrong.

Further, you two seem to have a separate disagreement on the legality of third party figures, and possibly a disagreement over what hasbro should be doing about it. These are more difficult questions but again, as a third party reading your posts you are both making some valid points, but debating the legality of third party products is difficult because they do come in so many different varieties. The legality of city commander versus the new motorcycle not arcee versus KO dino cassettes are very very different topics.

Personally I'd leave that whole second debate to Hasbro's team of lawyers. If they don't want to do anything about a particular figure I don't see why it's my ethical or moral duty to stand up for them. It would be different if Hasbro was unaware of some back alley KOs, but all this is happening out in the open and Hasbro could take action if they felt it was important enough - which is, I believe, what they did in the 80s.

[Mumps]

Originally Posted by justprime

Blah blah blah...

... seriously?

The image of Devastator is HASBRO'S INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY! This character of Hercules is 100% meant to look like, and BE Devastator, which Hasbro owns all rights to. Same goes for Fansproject Insecticons, and City Commander (Ultra Magnus), Protector, Defender, Knight Morpher, the list goes on. They own the image of these characters, and these companies are stealing it to use for themselves to please us, the fans.

You need to quit looking at this from an "oh, poor us can't get toys" and actually look at it from Hasbro's perspective.

I love these third party toys, I own MOST of them. I have Hercules, I have Giant on the way, I own pretty much everything Fansproject. But you know what? Hasbro has EVERY right to ban the sale of something like this from THEIR OWN convention.

Also, for everybody worrying about TFCon. The absolute WORST thing Hasbro can do, is not show up to do their panel and show new toys like they have the last few years. There is nothing they would do more than this.

Now, I'm gonna leave before I rage on somebody and get the mods on me (hey guys! )

[Omegatron]

Originally Posted by Bruticus82

Whether or not a character or story is significantly similar as to be infringing is typically a difficult fact-based question.

This would appear to me to be a significant point. The problem I have here is not that Hasbro can ban someone from selling something, its their convention or course they can, my issue is with the confiscation.

Even if I think you have stolen something from me I can't just steal it back for the simple reason that I could be wrong. If I'm wrong then its me who has committed the crime of theft.

Yes of course most third party stuff is based on Hasbro or Takara IP, it wouldn't sell as well as it does if wasn't. Knowing that is, and this is important, a lot different from legally proving that.

If I walked into a clothing store and started seeling knock-offs based on their logo or design, I could certainly be asked to leave, if I didn't leave they could call the cops and then maybe the police could confiscate my stuff while the clothing store tried to legally prove that I was infringing on their copyright. I could also be charged for trespassing or not having a buisiness license. I don't think at any point though the clothing store could just decide to take my stuff.

As a dealer at Botcon all I would have to do to muddy the waters would be to say "no this toy only bears a superficial reselmblance to one of your characters, its a completely different mold". This would work for third party toys not for knock-offs. In a court of law I would probably loose because a reasonable question would be "why did you bring this toy to a transformers convention then, doesn't that act alone indicate that you are aware of the value of Hasbro's Intellectual Property?"

Of course most dealers will never risk their livlihood by facing Hasbro in court and in general I support Hasbro in protecting their IP, but good luck enforcing this agreement (an itemised agreement would have been much less difficult to enforce)and good luck to Funpub avoiding lawsuits themselves if they take someone's stuff.

[Mighty_Galvatron]

Originally Posted by Robimus

Are they going to refund attendees who have already paid for their tickets, or give refunds to vendors who have already paid for their space?

Personally, I don't feel that attendees should get a refund. Should someone who buys a ticket for a rock concert be entitled to a refund if the set-list wasn't what they thought it would be? Either way, I don't believe (but I'm not 100% sure) that any of Botcon's official advertising included promoting the specific sale of non-Hasbro and non-Takara products.

In terms of the vendors themselves, I was going to say that yes they do deserve a refund because this is a new rule and suddenly they could be in a poition where they can no longer sell what they have been selling in the past. However, then Bruticus82 (and thank you for posting this) came along:

Originally Posted by Bruticus82

"Promoter and its designees, including Hasbro, Inc., each reserves the right to ban or deny display of any item for any reason."

"Promoter and its designees, including Hasbro, Inc., each reserves the right to confiscate any items that violates these rules and regulations."

"Exhibitor agrees to permit such confiscation without incident and agrees that all confiscated items shall become the property of Promoter or its designee and may be turned over to the appropriate authorities. Exhibitor herby [sic] waives and all claims against the Promotor [sic] or Hasbro, Inc. with respect to any removal of person or confiscation of items."

Is the way they went about it fair? Well, if exhibitors had to sign this before paying, and this is the document that actually gives them the right to attend Botcon as exhibitors, then it seems they gave them notice at the right time. If exhibitors pre-paid, or if there was some prior application process with its own rules and conditions, maybe some would have a case to say that it's not proper to introduce this "new" term at this point in time. Again, the process and details matter.

Despite some lacking of specifics here, I can't help but agree with this point: if vendors put their signature on these terms, there can be no refund. But like Bruticus82 says, this may or may not have been the case for every vendor.

[Robimus]

I don't know of too many conventions that don't collect their vendor fees long before the event, sometimes as much as 6 months prior to the event.

Frankly I doubt Botcon will give any refunds, they are not legally required to do so(I kinda figured that aspect of it was a no brainer). But it would be an excellent public relations move for them to do so, especially considering how they have jumped from one fiasco to another in rapid fashion these past few months.