If you think the Siege Deluxe at $29.99 is absurd...

[Nocturn]

Originally Posted by imfallenangel

Not sure where you're getting your numbers,

Memory. Mini-con Two packs were $6, Legends were $7, Basics were $10, Deluxes were $15, Voyagers were $30, Ultras were $40, Leaders were $60, Supreme was $80. When I started collecting in 2005-2006 those were the prices at Canadian retail. I remember vividly, as I was 12 and thereby had a very limited pool of funds to work with, so every dollar counted.

Originally Posted by imfallenangel

but I did a bit of checking and before the "Leaders" term started being used (2003-2005 range for example), the very large figures such as Armada Tidal Wave for example was 25.99$ (so around 35 CAN$) which via inflation calculator would bring it to US $35.49 (still under 50$ CAN) and putting the new Leader class next to Tidal wave, and there's a freaking huge difference in size and general quality (but not in details, so I'll give the newer figures a win on that).

1. Tidal Wave was an ultra. Yes he's huge, but he was an ultra. I wasn't collecting back then so I'm not sure what the actual price was, but that was the "$40" class in my day.
2. Tidal wave is big and fun but he's shit at the same time. He has no knees or ankles so all he can do is stand stoically. Modern toys may lack Tidal Wave's gimmickry, but the new ones at least tend to be fully articulated.
3. Before they were Leaders, they were "Supers", going all the way back to Beast Wars. Beast Wars is the root of modern TF price structure, and upon research, the first Super, Optimal Optimus, was $30USD at retail. This size class has never been as cheap as you stated, even going back 20 years.

Originally Posted by imfallenangel

And as far as pricing goes, when they can sell a 150$ figure for 30$ on a sale (Power Ranger's huge Ninja Megazord this Christmas) and still make profit, the argument about "plastics are more expensive" (and all the other excuses) is an absolute lie as QC and such has been fairly poor for the last several series.

1. Power Rangers is Bandai.
2. While I do think prices are increasing dis-proportionally to costs of manufacturing, the fact remains plastics ARE more expensive than 15 years ago. EVERYTHING is more expensive than 15 years ago. If you expect toy prices to remain static, you're delusional.

QC is atrocious, no argument there.

Also, see

Originally Posted by Alexander Quinn

As for the bit about this year’s Megazord, that’s TRU mate. Hasbro ‘suggests’ what stores sell their figures for. They don’t set the price. TRU pays a fraction of what they charge; when I worked for them back in high school they could afford to clearance an item up to 70% and still make profit. They pay Hasbro pennies for this stuff, cause they buy stock in the hundreds of thousands of cases. You can’t really equate what you as a consumer are paying for an item against what a mass consumer retail entity pays for them.

Originally Posted by imfallenangel

So, if you're happy to pay more, that is your choice, but some of us aren't happy about it and it is driving us away from buying more if at all at some point.

But if you like paying more, remember that once many stop buying, Hasbro and the others will end up bringing prices even higher to compensate, so I guess that's a win-win for Hasbro and those that like higher prices.

When did I say I like paying more? I don't, just...

Originally Posted by imfallenangel

I do prefer to be factual.

Originally Posted by imfallenangel

The problem is that what you're not agreeing on, is what we are saying all along... if Hasbro labels anything at whatever level they feel like, we are at their "mercy" for that, BUT when you have one series that Deluxe means not small but still very low in design and such, on a bubble card and sells for 15-20$, then another series they go with fancy box, higher design but yet still call it a Deluxe... the lines are very blurred.

A deluxe is a deluxe is a deluxe is a deluxe. Call it whatever you want. Complain as much as you want, a deluxe will still be a deluxe. Hasbro is the one who has the right to declare what their products are, not random schmucks on the internet. I don't like that they're getting smaller/more expensive, but a deluxe is a deluxe.

It doesn't matter what the original price was, if they're selling an old toy in a new line, they're going to charge the new price for that class. They're not going to discount that ONE figure out of the assortment just because the mold is older, retailers would have a hissy fit. It may not be "fair" or consumer-friendly even, but it's the most logical choice for Hasbro. Plus, as others have stated, there are always new fans who may not have seen the figure before, and it remains new and exciting to them.

I would vastly prefer to still be paying $15 for a deluxe, but that only happens on clearance these days. Instead I choose to not live in a fantasy, and grudgingly accept that a deluxe is $30 now.

Originally Posted by imfallenangel

Do you consider a Deluxe Siege to be the equivalent of a Deluxe Cyberverse, which at this point appears to be universally regarded as crappy as hell and possible one of the worse lines ever done? Oh wait, Cyberverse figures were given a new class system, so the deluxe are called "Warrior" class and selling at 20$

Well, no. But a Siege Deluxe is $30, and Cyberverse Warriors are $20. Why would you expect them to be equal?

For the record, both assortments underwhelm, IMO.

Originally Posted by imfallenangel

So let's take POTP or CW Deluxes then to be more "even" .. and again, those were 20$.

Yes they were, because that was before the price adjustment.

Originally Posted by imfallenangel

And for that Wing Megatron
Original (15-20$): https://tfwiki.net/wiki/File:Generat...W_megatron.jpg

Re-release (29$): https://tfwiki.net/wiki/File:TF-TLK-...s-Megatron.jpg

It's a question of if Hasbro was to start charging 30$ for a 3 inch tall figure simply because they rate is as a "deluxe"... when does it stop being acceptable?

Again, before and after the price adjustment. Also I have the Dreadwing version of the mold next to me here, its closer to 5 inches than 3...

You don't have to accept it, but as the property holder, it remains Hasbro's right to put anything in a box and call it a "Deluxe Transformer". They could put Corn Flakes in a box and call it a "Deluxe Transformer". You don't have to buy it. I wouldn't buy it. But Hasbro can do whatever it pleases with the brand and the toyline. Angry collectors aren't going to influence the shareholders, profits will, so Hasbro will always follow the money.

Originally Posted by imfallenangel

Once upon a time, we had the standard size that are now called deluxe. We also had the minis, and the larger ones and pricing was very flexible according to the size and type.

When they went with these classes, it removed this flexibility and they can put any figure in whatever class they want and then rewrite the pricing on such class. It does not follow inflation rates, it is simply a financial decision to see if they'll sell at inflated prices...

They put the price structure in because retailers demanded it. It's way easier to count "Deluxe x20, $30" than "Skytread x5, $28. Cog x5, $24. Hound x5, $32" etc...

Hasbro knows there's a market for transformers. If they put them on shelves, they'll sell, so they're going to charge as much as they bloody can. It's capitalism. Yes it sucks, especially for collectors who see their hobby balloon up in cost. But for the suburban mom, if Timmy likes Transformers, he's getting Transformers. They don't think about how the prices have increased, they just see "this one costs $30".

Originally Posted by imfallenangel

And that's been part of this discussion... anyone that likes and wants the figures are at the mercy of either buying then at these inflated prices, or end up having to deal with even higher prices from scalpers and such...

No one is holding you hostage and making you buy toys. If the prices aren't to your liking, you can always *not* buy it. Nobody ever *needs* a Transformer. You may really want something, but toy collecting is a luxury hobby, you don't actually *need* toys to survive.

Originally Posted by imfallenangel

So for your question about "who decides" or "officially classified" is the problem... I wouldn't rate a lot of figures as actually "Deluxe" just over their size, otherwise, then that would re-enforce what we're saying, that if they want to classify the figures as deluxes, then don't have some deluxes at 15-20$ and others at 30$....Set a price for a class and stick to it (and don't make it overpriced).

The price is $30, and they're sticking to it. The price was $20, and the stuck to that for a while. A deluxe is a deluxe, and a deluxe costs what a deluxe costs.

Unless you're talking about cyberverse again? But that's the "Warrior" class and is distinguished as such so that they CAN sell it at a different price point?

Originally Posted by imfallenangel

Between the POTP and CW and the Siege, the big difference for me is that the Siege does have much better plastic, which is ridiculous, as they need to stop going with the cheaper plastic for all of their figures, this should be a given. But is that worth 10$ more? not really, it should be more a question that the "cheaper" POTP and CW should have been better plastic in the first place.

Okay but if CW trilogy used the "better plastic" they would have charged higher prices like they are now. Hasbro is a business, they have no interest in giving you a good deal.

Originally Posted by imfallenangel

Did I get them even with the 10$ increase? Yes I did as I did want the figures, I just find that I did pay more than I should (especially the Leaders).

If you feel like they cost too much, wait for a sale. If you're afraid of missing a figure by doing so, but unhappy with paying full price, sorry? Demand has dictated that Hasbro can charge this much and get away with it. Someone else would buy it if you hadn't, and that's why you had to. But you didn't have to, because toys are a luxury. You wanted the figures enough to pay for them, so Hasbro wins. Vote with your wallet. If you're unhappy, DON'T BUY IT.

[imfallenangel]

Originally Posted by Nocturn

If you feel like they cost too much, wait for a sale. If you're afraid of missing a figure by doing so, but unhappy with paying full price, sorry? Demand has dictated that Hasbro can charge this much and get away with it. Someone else would buy it if you hadn't, and that's why you had to. But you didn't have to, because toys are a luxury. You wanted the figures enough to pay for them, so Hasbro wins. Vote with your wallet. If you're unhappy, DON'T BUY IT.

Your points are fine and most are valid, but you seem to miss one fundamental thing.. why are we on this forum?
And remember that the question was "If you think the Siege Deluxe at $29.99 is absurd..." in reference to the OP's first comment being about overpricing in toys, and most replies from members have been that yes, toys and anything that's now considered collectable is overpriced and it's getting worse.


To tell anyone that loves (has a passion) for collecting something and tell them "don't complain or don't buy" is a very simplistic view on it as we are collectors here, at least last time I checked. I don't understand the opposition against people stating that they find that prices are getting ridiculous, and quite a few have stated that they are now considering or actual getting out of collecting because of this.


That's like telling someone that cannot afford it to suck it up and not have a collection.... I'd rather see reasonable prices.
Note that I collect other items, and those can be much more overpriced so I seldom get any, but those are (most are anyways) true collectables as opposed to what Transformers are, children's toys...

I would agree with you a lot more IF we'd be talking about the MP or such.

[ngnaw]

@Nocturn
You're being naive and falling into what they want you to believe. A parent looking at those figures at $30 a piece will not buy it. After the collectors buy them they will shelf warm hardcore more than before... Call them wtv you want, a parent looking at a 5 inch figure will find it hard to swallow paying $30 for it.

[Sun Swipe Prime]

Originally Posted by imfallenangel

To tell anyone that loves (has a passion) for collecting something and tell them "don't complain or don't buy" is a very simplistic view on it as we are collectors here, at least last time I checked. I don't understand the opposition against people stating that they find that prices are getting ridiculous, and quite a few have stated that they are now considering or actual getting out of collecting because of this.

There are two things people are really quibbling about. One, your inaccurate statements about how much figures cost in the past. Two, your arbitrary distinction of what can and cannot be labelled as a certain class of figure.

These two things muddy the waters in terms of having any form of useful discussion.

Everything else I don't think people really care.

Originally Posted by imfallenangel

That's like telling someone that cannot afford it to suck it up and not have a collection.... I'd rather see reasonable prices.
Note that I collect other items, and those can be much more overpriced so I seldom get any, but those are (most are anyways) true collectables as opposed to what Transformers are, children's toys...

I would agree with you a lot more IF we'd be talking about the MP or such.

Personally, I think the issue here is the passionate and emphatic claim that Hasbro is screwing the consumer and overpricing children's toys, etc. etc. etc., and that we shouldn't stand for these Siege prices, and then you saying you caved and paid the piper anyway.

I'm not sure if it's irony, but it sure is amusing to me.

Because a few weeks after Siege started showing up, they went on sale and anyone could have picked them up for about the same price as POTP. I know I did.

If anything, in terms of business, you caving to the price hike, is a prime example of why Hasbro could and probably should raised prices. They knew they had some people by the shorties, and they would eat it like a good consumer.

[imfallenangel]

Originally Posted by Sun Swipe Prime

There are two things people are really quibbling about. One, your inaccurate statements about how much figures cost in the past. Two, your arbitrary distinction of what can and cannot be labelled as a certain class of figure.

These two things muddy the waters in terms of having any form of useful discussion.

Everything else I don't think people really care.


Personally, I think the issue here is the passionate and emphatic claim that Hasbro is screwing the consumer and overpricing children's toys, etc. etc. etc., and that we shouldn't stand for these Siege prices, and then you saying you caved and paid the piper anyway.

I'm not sure if it's irony, but it sure is amusing to me.

Because a few weeks after Siege started showing up, they went on sale and anyone could have picked them up for about the same price as POTP. I know I did.

If anything, in terms of business, you caving to the price hike, is a prime example of why Hasbro could and probably should raised prices. They knew they had some people by the shorties, and they would eat it like a good consumer.

First, I've been collecting probably longer than many here have been alive, and I remember and even have boxes or cards with the price tags, and I used a few references to prices, with inflation and such rates applied, so instead of making comments to disparage me, I'd rather you make valid points.

Two, providing examples of various figures set at Deluxe that are not close to being similar in quality is far from arbitrary but fact. More so when you have the exact same figure in two series but with a 50% increase in price tag.

I'm happy for you that you are amused, but the reality is that as a collector, I do like the Siege line enough to want it, though I do find it overpriced... According to you and your peers, somehow, I shouldn't be allowed to state that I find them overpriced because I bought them regardless?

Let's see what the options are, when you are a collector, see something that you do want and:

Buy it at the regular price if you find the figure or...

hope for a sale and run the risk that it will be gone, poached or due the low stock... And then what?

1) you just don't manage to get it, which sucks
2) you find it at scalpers prices
3) you wait and hope that new stock show up somewhere at acceptable prices.

So LOTs of risk, large gamble, etc.

I hesitated on some figures before and never saw them again... So yeah I'm now paranoid.

And I'm not even factoring in the children and parents angle into this as it seems to be a moot point for those that are arguing this.

Anyways, this discussion has turned into something that I don't care for any longer as it's repetitive and not in a good way.. And note that it isn't just high prices that discourages some collectors to the point of quitting but the attitude of some. I'm here to share with others and have fun with it, help and assist if I can... And this has now turned from that quite a bit, but the last time I stated to someone how they were acting, I was the one that got a time out.

[Nocturn]

Originally Posted by imfallenangel

Your points are fine and most are valid, but you seem to miss one fundamental thing.. why are we on this forum?
And remember that the question was "If you think the Siege Deluxe at $29.99 is absurd..." in reference to the OP's first comment being about overpricing in toys, and most replies from members have been that yes, toys and anything that's now considered collectable is overpriced and it's getting worse.

I never once said they should cost this much, only that the reasons for them costing so much, are plainly evident. I am fully in concurrence that toys cost way too much, but I acknowledge the futility of complaining about it - for all your complaints, you said you still bought the new figures anyway. Hasbro doesn't care about if you think it should cost less, when you already gave them your money.

Originally Posted by imfallenangel

To tell anyone that loves (has a passion) for collecting something and tell them "don't complain or don't buy" is a very simplistic view on it as we are collectors here, at least last time I checked. I don't understand the opposition against people stating that they find that prices are getting ridiculous, and quite a few have stated that they are now considering or actual getting out of collecting because of this.

That's like telling someone that cannot afford it to suck it up and not have a collection.... I'd rather see reasonable prices.
Note that I collect other items, and those can be much more overpriced so I seldom get any, but those are (most are anyways) true collectables as opposed to what Transformers are, children's toys...

Well, yes, pretty much. If collecting transformers is creating a financial burden, you should collect less. Companies aren't cutting out their bottom line to get you prices that fit your budget. If it costs too much, don't buy it. It's a simple view, but lots of people would be saved hardship by having it. "Live within your means" as they say.

I'm not saying anyone who's getting priced out should give up their passion or their hobby. I'm saying people should be reasonable with their income and not miss mortgage payments because TF's went up $10. If you can't afford every figure, or two of every figure, or whatever your standard used to be, lower your standard, don't bitch and scream at a wall that will never listen.

And I'm not saying this from a position of power. I buy one or two figures a wave, because that's what I budget for. I would *like* all of the TF's in the world, but I realize that I can't afford that, and scale back my hobby accordingly. "Be happy with what you have", don't expect the world to do you favours.

No one is any more or less of a fan by the size of their collection. But if you live in a dump and starve so you can buy every TF on the shelf, your priorities might need realignment. I've seen people get to full-on addict levels with their collections, letting pets die so they could use the food money to buy more figures. I'm advocating for people to collect responsibly.

Originally Posted by Sun Swipe Prime

Personally, I think the issue here is the passionate and emphatic claim that Hasbro is screwing the consumer and overpricing children's toys, etc. etc. etc., and that we shouldn't stand for these Siege prices, and then you saying you caved and paid the piper anyway.

I'm not sure if it's irony, but it sure is amusing to me.

Because a few weeks after Siege started showing up, they went on sale and anyone could have picked them up for about the same price as POTP. I know I did.

If anything, in terms of business, you caving to the price hike, is a prime example of why Hasbro could and probably should raised prices. They knew they had some people by the shorties, and they would eat it like a good consumer.

QFT.

Originally Posted by ngnaw

@Nocturn
You're being naive and falling into what they want you to believe. A parent looking at those figures at $30 a piece will not buy it. After the collectors buy them they will shelf warm hardcore more than before... Call them wtv you want, a parent looking at a 5 inch figure will find it hard to swallow paying $30 for it.

Call me naive, trips to TRU confirm that big brands don't really shelfwarm. You'd be hard pressed to find a Transformer that's been on shelves since this time last year, maybe some stores still have some early wave TLK stuff, but that may have been (and likely was) a re-order, or older figures shipping in later waves. There's obviously exceptions, like YOTM Optimus Primal, but TF's, even the overpriced ones, tend to not stick around for long.

TF's have mass appeal, and the kids I've known aren't quick to accept substitutes. The parent may have a hard time with the dollar value, and go for a smaller figure, or fewer figures, or whatever the case may be. At the end of the day, Transformers fans will get Transformers.

It's like LEGO. LEGO can charge whatever the hell they want, and people will buy it, because it's LEGO. It doesn't matter that Mega Blocks are an aisle over and half the price, because of the brand power LEGO has. They charge 10c a brick (on average) for something that costs them a fraction of a cent. They will maximize their profit by charging as much as people are willing to pay. Transformers is getting to that point. The brand is very strong.

Please note that I'm not happy with prices increasing, I don't agree with what Hasbro/the toy industry is doing, and I would prefer to live in a world where everything is free for everyone. But reality is Black Widow and Ryu for $29.99.

[Undrave]

LEGO is expensive, but their quality control and engineering is simple peerless.



I wouldn't mind 30$ toys if there wasn't a risk to buy one with a misassembled leg, loose joints or a design oversight that can be spotted within 30 seconds! the number of QC issues with Transformers that I have personally owned has only gotten worse with time.


The fit between LEGO pieces is perfect down to the micrometers. Hasbro can't get balljoints right half the time...

[ssjgoku22]

Originally Posted by Undrave

LEGO is expensive, but their quality control and engineering is simple peerless.



I wouldn't mind 30$ toys if there wasn't a risk to buy one with a misassembled leg, loose joints or a design oversight that can be spotted within 30 seconds! the number of QC issues with Transformers that I have personally owned has only gotten worse with time.


The fit between LEGO pieces is perfect down to the micrometers. Hasbro can't get balljoints right half the time...

Exactly, I think the price hike would be more justifiable if the quality was on point. Higher quality plastic, stronger joints, and better paint would be much appreciated. Ultimately, 3rd party is much more expensive in the long run, for example, Iron Factory. They sell legends sized figures for at least $40 CAD per figure. While they are small, the quality is usually there (which is why, regardless of the price, people keep buying them). If Hasbro would put similar care into their products, most of us wouldn't mind paying a few dollars extra.

Still, I don't think what we're paying right now is all that outrageous. Sales really help when they pop up, so I'm not complaining about this anymore.

[RNSrobot]

. Call me naive, trips to TRU confirm that big brands don't really shelfwarm. You'd be hard pressed to find a Transformer that's been on shelves since this time last year, maybe some stores still have some early wave TLK stuff, but that may have been (and likely was) a re-order, or older figures shipping in later waves. There's obviously exceptions, like YOTM Optimus Primal, but TF's, even the overpriced ones, tend to not stick around for long.

Ok, I'm calling you naive. Tr shelves are always full of too much stuff that isn't moving.

[Zenith27]

"If you think the Siege Deluxe at $29.99 is absurd..."

considering the inflation rate in Canada since 1985 is about 100%...

http://www.in2013dollars.com/1985-CA...017?amount=100

and I remember Grapple being $12 + tax back in 1985...(not my box but same vintage)



I would have to say I'm not too bothered more than any other price increase. The vintage figs had vacuum metalized parts and some metal bits, but were way simpler with a lot less assembly time. The new figs have nice painted details and no decals with way better articulation and must take WAY longer to put together.

The argument that parents won't shell out for a $30 fig hasn't been my experience. When I was a kid I got 2-3 "voyager" priced figs total over a year or so for birthdays and xmas. I knew plenty of kids that had way more that just given to them because they asked for one in the store. Price doesn't matter too much when you can easily afford it.

I DO feel the larger figs are a little too expensive but that's more to do with all the kibble bits you get that I'm not really interested in. (I'm looking at you Shockwave!)