Earth Hour

[bluefrenzy]

Originally Posted by Aernaroth

Wind Power is unreliable, as the wind doesn't always blow, and many wind turbines will never even generate the energy to make up for the energy they consumed in having their materials processed, formed, manufactured, and installed, once losses are accounted for. This is not to say that there aren't situations where wind power is feasible, but they are insufficient for wind power to have a real impact on power supplies.

Solar power is even worse, unfortunately. The sun only shines half the day (tops), and even an entire solar car worth of solar cells only generates enough energy to power a toaster. Furthermore, current solar cell technology is prohibitively expensive, they are energy intensive to produce, and require the use of various toxic materials. Unless significant advancements in the area are made, the photovoltaic cell will remain, like wind power, an exotic novelty power source. Other solar power methods, such as molten salt methods, are more efficient, but are even more limited in where they can be applied than wind power.

In Ontario, the power company is, for all intents and purposes, publically owned (the province is the major stakeholder). You can complain that electricity companies or government don't want alternative power sources all you want, but given that they're the ones paying for most of them, it's unlikely to be true. If the sources were so cost-effective and great, then these same organizations would be chasing after them for the same bottom-line reasons you stated.

Furthermore, the blackout you mentioned had nothing to do with the electricity "monopoly" in Ontario, which isn't even a monopoly since there are other companies, such as Bruce Power, in the game. That blackout was an accident caused hundreds of miles away, that knocked out power provided by dozens of power companies across a sizable chunk of North America.

You have some good points and I do agree that the cost/efficiency of solar/wind power is limited so far for the everyday urban person and for generation in a country like ours. However, wind power if far from a novelty exotic source. There are a number of farms in Alberta and even small communities/homes that are "off the grid" who rely solely on solar and wind power. Granted these people have wind generators larger than the average printer sized one and have room on their property to place a number of large solar panels. In the winter when there are stronger winds so you rely more on the wind generation for output and in the summer with more sun hours available, you rely more on solar. But these technolgies have come a far way in terms of output in the last couple of years (but still very expensive) and you still have to work on conservation (firing up 24hour Halo rampages is a no go)

What I'm getting at is that with these technologies, they can supplement the everyday person --> IF the government makes it more accessible for the everyday person. At the moment there are no big incentives for alternative energies in Canada because the energy that we get in Canada is relatively cheap and stable at the moment. Once that oil/gas/coal starts drying up, we're going to be facing alot higher bills and eventually going to have to rely more and more on nuclear/hydro (which also have their opponents). If everyday people can generate some of their own power, it'll cut costs, make people more self reliant, and even help feed into the grid.

Even though electricity is "deregulated" --> it's still more or less an oligopoly. With some of those alternative companies that are selling you the electricity, the rates you pay end up being more than if you stuck with the "old" company. Remember what happened in California when electricity was deregulated? Rolling blackouts, sky high bills. Obviously lobbyist want deregulation because there is more money to be made. At the moment in Alberta, the folks responsible for generation are making significantly more than the regulated days.

Perhaps I should have been more clear about the blackout and the word monopoly is wrong in this context --> we are still all tied to the grid so we are at the mercy of those who control it. The super blackout was likely unavoidable regardless of the source of power (hydro, wind, coal, etc) but again for the everyday person, if there was a small solar panel tied into a home based battery bank, things would have been a little bit more comfortable. I know for me it was hell. I lived in the middle of downtown Toronto on the 30th floor, no elevator, fridge powered off, food spoiling and no way to cook it, no lights (I had no candles) and my iPod was almost out of power. I spent that first night helping directing traffic on Carlton St because it was brighter outside and better than sitting in the dark alone with nothing to do.

I think we are arguing the more or less the same points when it comes to conservation and having an impact. Personally, I think people should start small like taking a few items off the grid. Using a small solar panel from Canadian Tire you can charge your cell phone/laptop/iPod, power night stand lamp, power your stereo, etc. The best solution is a personal Mr. Fusion ... it powers everything and it'll make those corporations bankrupt.

[Sideswipe]

Originally Posted by Aernaroth

yeah, try apple cores instead.

Ok, so... Should there be an banana : apple ratio?

What about the underdog, the orange?

All I really want to know is what amount of bananas is the correct amount.

[Aernaroth]

Originally Posted by bluefrenzy

WORDS

I'll grant you that wind energy is far more feasible in Alberta than in Ontario, especially in areas with wide undeveloped patches and rural areas where wind farms can be erected. I will even grant you that it could be a considerable energy source for rural homes and small communities. However, even putting aside its unreliability (and you're right, there's more wind in the winter, especially in Alberta), its simply not capable of generating the power required for densely populated areas and industrial applications, especially energy intensive ones. It can be applied to some everyday people in some everyday applications, but not the majority.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against wind power, and I totally support its continued improvement and more prevalent application. But as of now, its not the energy savior people make it out to be, and it'll never be capable of even close to the same levels of energy as fossil, hydro, and nuclear. It'll be like hamburger helper for energy, but yeah, even that's something.

Right now, at least in Quebec and Ontario, a substantial portion of energy is generated through hydroelectric power (which is awesome, as its sustainable and very clean), but hydroelectric is limited in where it can be applied. The next largest segment isn't fossil, its nuclear. Nuclear has its issues, but again, its far more efficient and clean than fossil. I agree that yes, we need to move away from fossil power generation, and given that plants need decades to go online, we need to start fast, but I think its going to be nuclear, not solar/wind that is the answer at this point.

Again, your understanding of the energy industry seems to be slightly flawed. There's few companies in the power industry (at least in Canada) because it takes a gigantic investment of capital to get started. And you're right, newer companies, especially ones using alternative sources, are unlikely to be able to offer more competitive rates, as they need to pay for their facilities, and depending on what methods they use, they may be less cost effective (example, after hydro, nuclear power is the cheapest per watt to produce).

What happened in California with Enron was actually an energy broker, not a producer, so blaming the generators in that case would be like blaming Hasbro because Zellers makes you pay too much for a deluxe. Furthermore, what happened in California was not a case of a lack of competition (though yes, more companies in play would have mitigated the situation), it was a case of a business doing something blatantly immoral and illegal, covering it up, and the authorities not bothering to investigate until long after things went to hell. So if anything, a company like OPG having the government as its major shareholder should increase transparency. As stated before, its important to excercise influence on said authorities through the governmental process to avoid these things.

Throwing a small solar panel on your roof is a useless gesture, as it won't free you from your faceless energy barons even if its the size of a patio table. It just won't generate enough energy. If you really want to consume less energy, conservation-based methods are the most effective, especially if you can institute them on a large scale (ie. appartment buildings, office towers, etc.). I think your demonizing of the energy industry is a little unwarranted. I've worked in it, and they're not like the Decepticons or that guy from Biker Mice from Mars.

Originally Posted by Sideswipe

Ok, so... Should there be an banana : apple ratio?

What about the underdog, the orange?

All I really want to know is what amount of bananas is the correct amount.

That sounds like a job for SCIENCE! Experiment and find out!

[bluefrenzy]

Originally Posted by Aernaroth

Throwing a small solar panel on your roof is a useless gesture, as it won't free you from your faceless energy barons even if its the size of a patio table. It just won't generate enough energy. If you really want to consume less energy, conservation-based methods are the most effective, especially if you can institute them on a large scale (ie. appartment buildings, office towers, etc.). I think your demonizing of the energy industry is a little unwarranted. I've worked in it, and they're not like the Decepticons or that guy from Biker Mice from Mars.

I think my negative view of the energy industry (particularly distribution) stems from the fact that a number of friends and my parents got the shaft when energy got deregulated. The high pressure immoral sales tactics that you mentioned that were used in California were used on us unsuspecting trusting Canadians. I think there was a recent special on CBC (or was it W5 or Global??) that tailed a number of the distribution sales reps and showed such tactics --> in the end they found that the people who signed on paid more than if they had stayed with the status quo. When confronted, the distribution companies said that they would "speak with their sales reps regarding tactics". A few weeks later they found the people using the same tactics. One tactic was to dress up like an Ontario Hydro worker and pretend to be checking the electric meter at the side of the house then "suggest" to the owner that a good way to save money would be to sign up with xyz distribution company. Terrible.

[jacobot]

Bump... Right now

Did you?

[razin]

Nope, Leafs game is on. Who ever planned this around the 3rd period is a fool! I did turn some other stuff off though.

[GMfan]

No, because 5 years later, this is still a colossal waste of time

[Knockout]

Global Warming isn't Man made, anyone with a brain knows that. We are helping it along yes, but this is all natural. It will continue to happen with or without our help. So Earth Hour is just another money scam.

[skrilla 88]

I turn the lights off every night before I go to sleep. That's enough.

[RageD]

Were all doomed by a giant asteroid anyways, or so that chick in my dream told me.